employment standards

chevyvanman · Post by **chevyvanman** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:07 pm

Hello there scooter

Just a question about BC employment standards. Are companies required to pay you minimum wage for driving time? Is this a new requirment for this year?

how about a quick and dirty break down of the standards that new planters should be looking at to protect themselves.

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:50 pm

Very good question.

My current company pays our drivers a token amount per day (except foremen & supervisors & checkers, for whom driving is in the job description). I was under the impression that this was because the managers want to ensure that the drivers respect their vehicles and take care of them, not because of regulatory requirements. Each vehicle has an assigned driver for the year, and these people must have class fours and drivers' abstracts on file with our office.

I'm not sure what the provincial standards are. I will definitely do some digging to try to find out, and post my findings here. Give me about two days ....

chevyvanman · Post by **chevyvanman** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:34 pm

Scooter, sorry worded my question a little wrong, at my company the drivers are paid, what I meant to ask was is it law to pay planters for the time it takes them to get to the block as they ride in van?

arjaymagee · Post by **arjaymagee** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:44 pm

Its law, but for the most part it is ignored.

Companies don't want to pay it, and workers rarely bitch.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:13 pm

I am still looking into this. I have called the Employment Standards Office in Prince George several times, at (250) 565-6120, but haven't talked to anyone in person yet.

One useful page is found at:

http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/silvicu ... .htm#hours

I am under the impression that the information on that page is correct. I know that my company made a very concerted effort several years ago to make sure that they were fully compliant with the things on this page. The biggest change for us was to the payroll system, which had to be completely reworked, so that planters are paid in full every two weeks, and meet all the vacation/holiday/overtime requirements.

I can't find anything yet on whether or not planters are supposed to be paid for driving time. I do remember seeing this in the past, but I can't think of where. I think that arjaymagee's comments are useful.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:51 pm

Ok, the Employment Standards people just called me, so I have some better information.

Go to this page:

http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts ... orkers.htm

This confirms that yes, planters are expected to be paid for time spent driving to and from the block, which in their specific description is: 'portal-to-portal' - from the time workers leave camp or pick-up point to the time they are returned to camp or designated pick-up point.

Now, the fact that planters are being paid a piece rate must be considered. If the planter is making sufficient money on piece rate, then the driving time payment is covered by the piece rate. However, if the planter is not making at least an amount equivalent to minimum wage for the time spent driving and on the block, then minimum wage must be paid for that total amount of time.

As an example, let's assume that the planter works 7 hours in a day, and makes 10 cents per tree (base rate), and spends half an hour driving to the block, and half an hour driving from the block, for a total of eight hours.

The worker is entitled to compensation equivalent to 8 hours total at minimum wage ($8.00/hr) or $64.00, PLUS vacation and stat holiday pay on top, and overtime, if applicable. If the planter plants at least 640 trees during that day, then the planter will be paid the piece rates for his/her trees. If the planter does not plant 640 trees, he or she is entitled to $64 in minimum wage for the day.

HOWEVER, before people get too excited, remember that this information is balanced out over a two-week pay period. If you have several days over 640 trees (in the above example) and one day below 640 trees, your total for the period will exceed the minimum wage requirement, as can be intimated from the fact that your daily average is high enough. So if you have one poor day during the pay period, don't expect to get paid minimum wage instead of your tree price.

daleks · Post by **daleks** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:32 pm

a sore point with me....one fairly large planting company refuses to give planters more than 8 hours per day acknowledged time (even though they leave at 7 a.m. and often plant until 5 or 5:30 p.m.)....that counts for e.i. purposes ( a Federal Government programme)...because they feel that should they give more hours (the actual hours worked) the planter would have a case to be made in front of Employment Standards Branch (a Provincial Government programme) to have their wages increased to the minimum wage...(this company hires Ontario planters to work the coast and inlets of B.C.)......makes me very angry that the company does not acknowledge in some way the time and effort that their workers are putting in.....contact by me with Employment Standards and the Labour Review Board, has them telling me that unless the company agrees with the figures i give them, then the company rules....sad, but true, my on the job diary does not count as much as a person sitting in an office who has no idea what time i got back home that night to finish off another stupid block to save the company from having to send back a single truck tomorrow for half a day.........on a more positive note, that company seems to have lost more and more work on the coast, and this year have only two contracts, one which they've had for years, the other for a private American held woodlot.............

rod · Post by **rod** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am

hey scooter, there's been a lot of talk about regulations and law in b.c, and i was wondering if you knew what some of the laws were ( i.e paid travelling time/walk in's) for alberta? I have a feeling there was some sneaky business going on this year, but not entirely sure where to start.

thanks

by the way, this site rules

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:56 pm

Hm, don't take this as accurate information, but I think that travelling time has to be accounted for as part of the overall day worked, which means that if your piece-rate earnings for the day do not add up to equal at least minimum wages for the regular and overtime hours worked in the day, then "difficulties" arise.

As an example, let's assume that minimum wage is $8/hr, and you work an 8 hour day, but that 2 hours are spent driving (1 to the block, 1 going home) so you're actually only planting for 6, and you plant 600 trees in the day at a price per tree of 10 cents. Very simplified, of course.

Anyway, minimum wage should be calculated as $8 per hour x 8 hours, which is $64. Therefore, if you don't make at least $64 on piece rate that day (which in the above example is 600 * $0.10 = $60), then there is a problem. However, be aware that minimum wage rules probably only apply when combined or averaged over a two-week period (regular pay period), not over the course of a single day.

Walk-ins are not covered, except in the sense of travelling time as illustrated above. Some companies will sometimes say "you will get an extra half cent per tree if you have to walk more than one kilometer to get into the block, and an extra cent per tree if you have to walk more than two kilometers to get into the block," or rules like that, but to be honest that varies from contract to contract, not just from company to company. Most licensees do not pay the planting contractors any extra identifiable component in the bid price for long walk-ins (although a few do), so any extra money for walk-ins usually just is a decision of the planting contractor.

However, I may be off-base with the thoughts above. Anyone who is really concerned about this should look up the exact rules in the employment standards websites on the internet.

A more useful approach is to talk to planters that have worked for a particular company, and find out what the general policies seem to be and whether or not the planters were happy with the way that distant blocks were treated.

daleks · Post by **daleks** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:25 am

minimum wage in bc is $8.25

Kylos · Post by **Kylos** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:22 pm

Last time I worked min. it was 8.50 an hr. But that was more than a year ago, and I havent been back in BC since, so maybe its changed? Unless, there are two different minimums for working in shitty department stores and plantin.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:52 am

I hadn't heard that it had increased past $8.00 plus vacation (4%) yet. I just checked online, and found this page which still says that it is $8.00 per hour:

http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/min-wage.htm

Unfortunately, that doesn't give dates about the effective time frame at that rate, nor does it say when the next increase will be, or to what level. Other provinces include that sort of information. Maybe this means that BC doesn't have a planned increase legislated yet? I know for example that in New Brunswick, they had the increases planned out ages ago. For instance, on January 1st, 2005, the rate is increasing from $6.20 to $6.30 per hour. That page that I just referenced above says that it was last updated on November 25th (just a couple weeks ago) so I assume that is current information.

Jdog · Post by **Jdog** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:03 am

If you want to plant trees for minimum wage you need your head examined anyways. Scooters right about the calclations but why in GODS name would you stay for minimum wage. Its either not for you or the prices are stupid.

The fact that someone wants to figur out if they should get 8.50/hour for driving because they are a lame ass planter makes me sick.

Good planters worry about the taxes they are going to pay and if the company they work for helps them get RWA.

Skidder · Post by **Skidder** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:58 pm

I think the whole reforestation/forestry piece rate industry needs to come to grips with the fact that time spent by an employee on the company's time should be renumerated, whether you're a lame ass planter or not. If I were travelling 2+ hrs/day to and from work, I'm not volunteering, no matter how well I performed according to the job description. Whether you're driving or slinging trees, companies should realize their employees are technically working for the bottom line and the productivity of the company. Min wage is the least that can be provided.

Post by **Scooter** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:16 pm

I think the problem is that once the companies are forced to pay employees for time spent sitting in a vehicle driving to or from the block, the money has to come from somewhere, so it comes out of the tree price. That kind of an arbitrary redistribution of funds (a lower price per tree) would affect fast planters more than slow planters. Therefore, paying for driving time would be a system that would favor rookies over veterans, which runs counter to the entire philosophy of piece-work where you get paid more when you work harder.

Don't get me wrong - it could certainly be done quite easily. But it would be the slow planters who would push for a such a system, and the fast planters that would resist this change. For a few people, like the company owners, it wouldn't make a bit of difference, because they'd ensure that the overall payroll would stay the same. You might think that company owners would be the ones that would fight this, but any owner who resisted efforts to implement something like this wouldn't be fighting out of selfishness, they'd be fighting on the behalf of their vets. It's just not consistent with the way that the industry is structured. Every time that you make a move to pay for things like driving time, you're making things more equal for each employee. Employment equity can be a good thing, but push it too far, and you're going to eventually move to a system based on straight wages, where everybody makes the same per hour. Do that, and all your good workers are going to get frustrated because the lazy people are earning just as much without putting the sweat equity into the job. Next thing you know, you will start losing all your vets who say screw it and move onto other easier jobs. Then the costs start to go way up, because you once again have a less skilled labour force.

It's all very theoretical and market-oriented economic theory. However, the fact is, that theory can be a lot more down-to-earth and applicable than many people think. If someone suggested that we should get paid for driving time, I wouldn't care in the slightest as a foreman or supervisor. However, if I was a decent experienced planter, I'd scream bloody murder.

There is only so much money in the pot. Start giving it away in one area, and something else has to suffer. And the only thing that can suffer is the tree price ...

Skidder · Post by **Skidder** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:12 pm

I can understand that line of thinking. In a perfect world (softwood duty-free) it would be nice if the licencees wouldn't nickel & dime every aspect of their operation, and ensure that their contractors were fulfilling legal requirements by providing a bit (ie a fraction penny/seedling) of financial headroom. But as forestry services of all kinds have become more competitive, every penny counts. Maybe rather than every minute in a vehicle logged, if the contractor could offset unplanned downtime (due to management miscalculation) or slinging helis for half days, etc. I know I would have appreciated it. It would go a long way to foster allegiance and loyalty.

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:47 pm

So true (planters would appreciate some sort of compensation for half-days with heli slinging and so on). That's always a challenge for a foreman or supervisor with limited resources in being able to someone give some sort of "unofficial compensation" to people who help out with that sort of work.

Jdog · Post by **Jdog** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:26 am

First of all The resolution of the softwood duty wont bring about some new age of planting prices. The main reason planting prices are low is:
1. Oversupply of contractors and labor in general
2. Planting is a "sunk" cost. There is no return on the near term fiscal horizon for the money spent planting. THis is even worse for incremental silviculture b/c the costs per ha are higher. Face it we are not the money end of this business. Extraction will always have more clout b/c the industry relies on it.

THis year for the first time foreign labor (mexicans) are being used in the okanogan fruit industry. Dont think other industries arent watching this.

A responsible corporation returns those fractions of pennies per tree to their shareholders at all costs.

I think also that good contractors know when the troops are unhappy and juice a price for psychological effect. I do it all the time.

Scooter of course you've explained the point clearly and it applies to camp costs too. ( Thats one that the industry should bear but since they dont. ) Fast planters subsidize slow planters with camp costs too. I always avoid subsidizing camp costs (ie if the motel is 50/night how much do I pay and how much does the planter pay capped at 25 of course) I would much rather see that money in the tree price and reward the producers.

Bolo99 · Post by **Bolo99** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:02 pm

Hi there, excellent site, very interesting and informative. After reading the posts re: travel time. I felt compelled to add my two bits! Under the current employment standards act of British Columbia it is ILLEGAL to NOT pay employees travel time. Period. Unfortunately very few planting companies that I know of, pay travel time. Check out the Government of BC employment standards factsheets. In a nutshell, because planters are staying in a "remote access" location (i.e. tent camp!) they are under the direction and control of the employer, and thus are doing something for the employers business. The planters time travelling is considered time worked. It is supposed to be paid at minimum wage (at least). The reality of course, is that many companies do not pay travel time, and use the excuse that "the money has to come from somewhere", and if we start paying travel time, it will lower the price per tree. I'm sure this is correct, all I can say to that is maybe if the companies worked together a little more, they could go to the mills, licensees, ministry(whoever they are planting for) and demand an extra cent or two to cover the costs associated with having to truck eighty people an hour and a half(one way!) to plant a fucking block! Just a thought! JDogs comments re: companies not wanting to pony up for planting contractors were right on the money. The unfortunate reality is that the big timber companies hate spending money on planting, because there is no immediate profit realized. With the logging contractors, every time a truck load of logs goes over the scales at the mill, the company makes money. This is why the logging contractors can demand higher rates, and why most of the loggers are paid travel time, at time and a half! I dont know, not trying to get to "political" here, but the planting industry in BC is a shadow of what it once was. The prices get lower every year, and it seems that every time you turn around theres another merger or two between established planting companies. I know a few years ago Dirk Brinkman started the Western Silvi Contractor association, to try and give planting co's a little more clout with the licensees and government, but it seems that planting has become even more cutthroat, with bid prices getting lower every year, or, companies that have had a direct award arrangement with a planting contractor, deciding that "nope this year we are only going to pay 21 cents across the board, and you have to pay for the reefer!" Great job if you like being outdoors working hard, and playing hard. But dont kid yourself, the money is nowhere near what it used to be!

Skidder · Post by **Skidder** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:24 pm

Forest companies and licensees these days are forced (in their best interests) to abide by terms within their management agreements, as well as ISO and CSA agreements. Deep down in there somewhere are terms where they need to adhere to regulations such as those concerning employment standards. If lowest-bid contractors win contracts, then it will generally show in the work. I think most of the major FMA/TFL holders have woken up to that fact (ie the 2nd lowest bidder signs), but don't feel that a contractor's way of doing business is their responsibility (unless people are getting hurt).

Tessa · Post by **Tessa** » Fri May 27, 2005 9:36 am

hey,

Here's what the minimum standards in BC are for travel time for planters: your hours each day start from when you leave camp and end when you return, so if the trucks leave at 7am and get back to camp at 6pm then you worked 11 hours. if you make more than minimum wage for the time worked you just get paid per tree as usual.

Minimum wage for an 11 hour day would be 8 hours X $8.00/ hour = $64.00 plus 3 hours at time and a half ($12.00/ hour) = $36.00; $64.00 + $36.00 = $100.00 so as long as you make on average more than 100 / day for the pay period they don't have to pay you anything extra for travel time.

if you are the one driving the truck, all the companies I worked for paid you something extra (partial day rate, or free camp costs) to drive.

hope this is helpful,

-Tessa

Bolo99 · Post by **Bolo99** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:34 am

Hi there, in response to tessa from P.G., sorry but this info is wrong. You are quoting the standards that apply to piece workers, and what they must be paid (at a minimum) if they are making less then minimum wage planting. (or doing some other type of work that is paid by the piece)This has nothing to do with paying employees travel time. Travel time must be paid when the companies require workers to stay in a "remote access" location and are engaged in activities towards the employers business. The time travelled, (in company vehicles from a "marshalling point") is considered time worked. It does not matter if the planters are making more than minimum wage or not. This can be a bit of a gray area, but there has been precedent setting employment standards act of BC cases in the past that have determined this minimum requirement. There are some good factsheets that the provincial government has published regarding travel time. Most planting companies still don't pay it! I guess it's one of those iffy type regulations that has been overlooked by most of the planting industry for so long that it has become the norm. Too bad, because most other industries that require there employees to spend anywhere from 1.5 to 3 hours a day to get to a job site (in remote access locations) pay travel time (Loggers, road builders, miners, forestry crews etc.)

Tessa · Post by **Tessa** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:32 pm

Hey, just a little note in response, the regulations for silviculture workers (ie. planters) are different from those employed in other sectors. The information on the Travel Time factsheet that you are quoting does not apply to planters.

Planters must be paid portal to portal, meaning that to figgure out your minimum daily pay you must include travel time as time worked, but as long as the amount you are making per day being paid per tree is more than the minimum daily pay, you won't be paid anything extra. That is what it says in the employment standards act and regulations. for more info see: http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts ... orkers.htm

employers can pay planters for travel time if they want to, but they don't have to.

hope this clears up some of the confusion, I know the rules can seem contradictory, but that is mostly because there are different sets of rules for silviculture workers than most other employees.

Meeshk · Post by **Meeshk** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:15 am

I planted in Ontario the past two seasons and found travel time here is dictated by Union contracts. The company I work for has contracts with Weyerhauser and Bowater and are regulated by the Union agreements between these companies and their workers. I think in both cases we were to be paid the rate of a feller which is like 22/hr for everything above 45 or 30 min to or from the block. Like Arjaymagee said, our company always seemed bitter about paying for this and I think never would have if not for worries about someone filling a grievance with the union.

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