Planting in the USA

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:05 pm

[Edit by Admin, December 26th, 2016: I just merged six different topics about planting in the US into this one giant topic].

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:36 am

I'm trying to find some comprehensive information about planting in the US. Anyone done it? Major companies? Prices? I haven't been able to find much reliable information.

gilkie · Post by **gilkie** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:41 am

I could be wrong but I'm almost positive Brinkman has a few contracts in Washington. They might be a good contact to start from. Other than that from my very limited understanding I've 'heard' that of what reforestation is done in America, much of it is done by 'illegal immigrants' or rather marginalized visible minorities originally from south of the border as it keeps COSTS down, always an American imperative.

Saffa · Post by **Saffa** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:35 pm

Hey there, I did a contract in Idaho, for Brinkman, price's where ok, nothing special, steep ground, but no slash for the most part-it was all burnt 13-15c, Brinkman also has a few contracts in Washington,of which I've heard mixed results! Contact Timo for more info, his email is on the brinky website, ps we where payed in canadian $$$$

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:56 pm

Saffa wrote:Hey there, I did a contract in Idaho, for Brinkman, price's where ok, nothing special, steep ground, but no slash for the most part-it was all burnt 13-15c, Brinkman also has a few contracts in Washington,of which I've heard mixed results! Contact Timo for more info, his email is on the brinky website, ps we where payed in canadian $$$$

i got a call at the start of this year from an old planter who used to work for me, he was stuck on this show in idaho for brinkman for a few weeks saying it it was all .12 according to him, steep, burnt, hmmmm

i couldn't help him out but he eventually bailed like many others after someone tried to get weed mailed over the border and the cops threatened to charge everyone working there with some sort of conspiracy to traffic drugs or some bs,

anyway, not trying to stir shit up but the story from someone i know quite well and it doesn't have anything to do with okay, it was a funny story, nothing special but definitely not okay
planting in the states.
well at least there's

OBAMA

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:42 pm

[Note from Adminstrator: This post originally appeared in the "Jobs" Forum, and when we cleaned out that forum on October 23rd, 2010, we decided that this post had some info that might be useful in the future. Accordingly, it was moved to this forum, so future searches within the Replant.ca forums databases would still be able to bring up this info. You should realize that some parts of this thread may be out of date with respect to current job openings. - Scooter]

Hello, I am an American tree planting contractor. I am now hiring for the new season, which starts next week. Much like in Canada, you have to be legally able to work in the USA. In fact, my first contract is with the Federal government at a Fish & Wildlife Refuge, and they will be verifying social security #s. My season will lead me from Alabama to North Carolina to West Virginia to Michigan by mid-May.

I have read some of these nice Canadian websites on an off over the years, and I have to say I am basically jealous of the state of the industry up there compared to here. I know the Canadian planters are curious about the situations here. In the USA, a decent job was destroyed a long time ago by the government not enforcing their own laws. Illegal immigration and many other labor law violations made the whole business an ugly, ugly race to the bottom. In my home state of Michigan, they already have a contract signed for next year with one of my huge competitors. The price to the contractor is, get ready, US $43.50 per thousand. That's to the contractor, and completely legal as the vast bulk of reforestation work here is done with legally imported foreign workers on the H-2 program. There's a bit more to that than I want to go in to here.

Anyway, I am hiring Americans. I can pay about $10 / hour, but that's not that easy for me. I do a lot of wetlands work with as many as two dozen species on a job where individual production based pay is not really an option. But if I can develop a solid core crew I will be considering some production work later on, but not while people are learning. You can see more about my business on my blog:

http://web.me.com/newforestservices/tre ... nidos.html

I have some good situations with some good clients. Nevertheless it's not an easy business by any means, so we will be camping a lot.

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:58 pm

Best of luck, Brian ...

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:13 pm

it it a truly insane business in the United States, rather than just a kinda crazy one

I put a thread in the Jobs forum...

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:23 am

Wow. 4.35 cents american per tree to the contractor. What's that to the planter? 3 cents American at best?

Can any company even afford to pay their planters minimum wage? You say you can pay about 10$ an hour...how? I guess you got better contracts than the competitor from michigan?

I am interested in working in America (and other places in the world), and trying to get as much real information as possible. (I'm a student at the moment, so not this year)

Do you have to be America, or would you take Canadians on a work visa?

I'm curious to see your competitors site to see what they say they pay?

Thanks

-Mike

gilkie · Post by **gilkie** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:17 pm

I can pay about $10 / hour...
...wetlands work with as many as two dozen species on a job ...

Good luck indeed!

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:49 pm

I would take any experienced Canadian planter in a heartbeat. I have no idea how likely it is you could get a work visa, but I think it would be unlikely. There is a program for agricultural visas, a lot of my competitors use it. It does have good specialized uses; for example Basque sheepherders are brought in this way because they have the skills to do that and the temperament to live on the range for a few months at a time. I don't use the program myself, for a lot of reasons.

You guys would actually enjoy my wetland jobs. 19 times out of 20, it's a farm-field conversion. Nothing but dirt, and sometimes a little water. Sometimes it's deep enough that you are effectively planting underwater and that takes a certain skill. Once you plant trees on a farm field, even clean cut-over will never look the same.

I knew that mentioning that particular price would catch your attention. The Michigan contract is a little extreme, and is in the final year of a base year + 4 option years. The state government here issues a separate contract to a forestry consulting company to do the quality audits, and more importantly, to deliver the trees and leading the planters to the site, since I doubt the crews involved would be able to find the blocks on their own (the planting contractor does the transportation and lodging, etc.). So the State is actually spending a bit more than 4.35 cents a tree, but I am not sure how much. The Federal contracts in my state went for $85/thousand this year, and are supposed to be paid under "Service Contract Act" wages set by the government, which are around $10/hr + $3.30/hr untaxed 'health care allowance'. And that is before overtime. I seriously doubt the contractor who has that one will be paying $13+ per hour consistently, but possibly. These contracts are on nice sites though; trenched sand where you can really rock and roll. Quality control is done by Federal employees and likely to be extremely lax from what I've seen; survival and growth suffer. I personally detest such 'fake' contracting quality situations. Either do it right or don't do it.

Another Michigan contract, for wildlife improvement type work, isn't very realistic either, in my opinion. This was for underplanting Hemlock plugs (grown by your wonderful mega-nursery that I love working with when I can) at a low density - 12' x 12' (302 per US acre). That one went for 7.2¢ to the contractor. Twelve feet apart is pretty slow work, especially so in an existing stand on ground unlikely to be flat in many cases.

There are other, better prices in places in the USA. Federal work has been improving some the last few years after some bad publicity for them, but other times their winning bids are basically impossible in my opinion. Industrial work is still pretty ugly in general.

Don't waste your time looking at websites of US contractors. They aren't hiring anyone. I didn't want to mention this, but might as well. The strong rumor is (I believe it) that these contractors make their money selling visas in Central America. (totally illegal). They make their money up front and only take jobs to be able to get the visas to sell. Whether they make money on a planting job is irrelevant. Of course that is just a rumor and the companies involved would just say that's sour grapes from a small-scale competitor. A couple of the US firms have 30 crews a day on the road, so they make their money on 'volume', officially.

There is more to the labor scene in the USA though, it is a long complex topic. Our country is a surreal place.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:46 pm

In the long run though, the speed of the land is fairly irrelevant when you're paid by the hour. If anything, the tougher work would be better because it wouldn't be so monotonous, and you'd know that the job would take longer (so if you actually enjoyed the work, it means more work in the long run). The only time the speedy land would be a bonus would be if there was some sort of production-based bonus.

With the current exchange rates, the chance of getting Canadians down there is pretty slim. At least in Canada, we get about $8.50 per hour minimum wage. $10/hr USD would have worked out to about $13/hr CAD a few years ago, but now that the dollar is near parity, that pretty much deflates that angle.

I'm glad you've posted this info here though. Even though there is probably not much chance you'll end up getting any Canadian workers out of the posting, I'm probably speaking for quite a few Canadians here who are at least curious to learn how planting works in different countries. Makes us appreciate the Canadian system a lot more too. I hope you have some luck hiring some people down there. We do get a moderate number of Americans looking for work on this site, who don't stand much of a chance of getting jobs in Canada, so maybe this will turn out to be an option for some people.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:59 pm

hey scooter wouldn't most companies put a lot of pressure on you though production wise? i mean if it's that underbid, and they're getting paid by the thousand, i would imagine that you'd run into some real asshole foremen.

however it's good to know of at least one reasonable contractor down there, i'd try it out for a week just to see. i was born in california so it may even be an option one day. hey when does the season start/end?

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:45 pm

Duncan wrote: i couldn't help him out but he eventually bailed like many others after someone tried to get weed mailed over the border and the cops threatened to charge everyone working there with some sort of conspiracy to traffic drugs or some bs,

anyway, not trying to stir shit up but the story from someone i know quite well and it doesn't have anything to do with okay, it was a funny story, nothing special but definitely not okay
planting in the states.
well at least there's

Oh boy. I heard about this as well, we had a few people from that contract come up to work with us in Alberta right after. They lost a couple shifts of work because of that one.

I heard similar things about the contract specs as well. Not awful, not that great either.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:56 pm

I've always figured y'all up there can get a little tired of Americans looking to try out tree planting. I never could get anyone to hire me on without a work visa. But I thought maybe some American eligible peeps might see all this stuff.

The hourly stuff is nice. When I had HIspanic crews up to two years ago, they would make up to $14-$15 on some production jobs but they told me they would rather do the hourly jobs at $10. Everyone works at a nice steady pace; no one is allowed to stand around, but you just plant trees steadily with excellent quality and everyone, most especially my clients, is happy.

Anyone with Canadian experience and American work eligibility might have some good opportunities in years to come. I know one Federal agency who is applying for a half a billion dollars in stimulus funding for a five year tree planting program, which would mean all-American hiring, yet they have no real clue that almost no Americans currently plant trees and thus they would have almost no qualified supervisors for their new tree planting crews.

My season started yesterday. I wish I had time to hang out here a bunch and commiserate with ya about fun things like rookies who can't even figure out that their bodies will need a bunch of calories at their new job and there is no fast food joint down the street to get them from (the business here hardly has financial overhead for things like a camp cook). Oh, the stories I could tell, but, it's tree planting season, and my internet time is concerned almost wholly with potential bids and fun things like the fact that November is a month with freaking two paid Federal holidays and I am on a Federal contract right now. So much for making any money on this one.

Oh and farm fields can really suck sometimes, like specifically when the client didn't follow through with ripping open the compaction caused by farming. I can chip a tree in to that cement, but I can't make one grow there. So again, there goes some money on this one.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:17 pm

i don't know, going slow for ten bucks an hour doesn't sound that fun to be honest, i think a lot of us production planters up here enjoy the faster pace, otherwise the bugs would drive us insane and the hours would go by painfully slow.

it could be alright to try out for a week but unless the scenery or the conversation is amazing then it would turn into just another boring labour job, might as well be doing construction cleanup at that point.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:27 pm

I hear ya, I didn't really post here expecting to hire any Canadians. I do expect that when our Congress finally, finally, finally seriously opens the Immigration issue next year, that a lot of things will change in the business in the USA. We can hardly continuously extend unemployment benefits on borrowed Chinese money and simultaneously let 8 or 10 million illegals continue working in our country. When that happens, the market should once again reward the people with the moxie to get up in the morning and plant several thousand seedlings at a level reflecting the amount of people that CAN do that.

The conversation is good and the non-planting activities do tend to revolve around music. We'll all be at Bear Creek Music Festival this weekend it looks like, though mostly because I have to be continually recruiting; though otherwise we'd be rolling up to Atlanta to see the New Mastersounds, who fortunately are also playing the festival. It is just such a hard sell; most people have no idea that it will actually be hard work.

And actually right now I am paying $10/hr as payroll subject to taxes, and $3.30/hr untaxed (i.e. cash) 'Fringe Benefit Allowance' as directed by the Federal Service Contract Act, but this contract will only last through Christmas or so. After that I can't really pay the extra 3. I'll be bidding on some other Federal work in the near future, that one will be planting Atlantic White Cedar plugs along the Virginia/North Carolina line in March. If I ever had at least a small core group of veterans to illustrate the Way for all the rookies I have to deal with, I could get in to some production pay. But I lose money while they learn everything and need to make it up again after they start putting in some numbers. And with people who have never lifted a heavy object before, nor even been out in the woods much, that takes quite a long while.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:14 pm

planting till christmas, wow. is it fairly cold? if my knees were feelin stronger i'd come down for a few weeks just to get off my ass and do a road trip.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:42 pm

I have never been any good at all at changing Celsius to Fahrenheit so I won't even try. Temps are running in the low 70s to mid 40s this week; next week will be mid 60s to low 40s it looks like. We actually need a frost to brown up some of the vegetation on the margins of the tracts, it can be hard to see the seedlings at times, especially for new planters.

I do think America has one advantage over Canada in tree planting, and that relates to bugs. For me, if we are dealing with bugs on a tract then I know I am planting it too late. Planting seasons here are long enough that you can get jobs in while all the bugs are dormant...very nice. By the time the bugs hatch, I should have already moved north. I do see them sometimes at the end of the season in Michigan, but even there they aren't too bad. Michigan's Upper Peninsula is much worse for those though.

This week, we are basically doing a fall plant, and as I mentioned, there hasn't been a hard frost yet. So I'm swatting about one mosquito per day right now, and we did use a little bug spray one day last week when Hurricane Ida made it a gloomy overcast day. Very soon now we won't see another bug. By January we will start losing a morning or a whole day once in a while to frozen ground, but that has been lessening every year I have been in the business.

Post by **Scooter** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:46 pm

No bugs. Hah! Take that, Northern Ontario.

What about vicious poisonous man-eating snakes? Or deadly killer spiders? There's got to be a trade-off for not having bugs. Wild boars? Rabid turkeys? It would only seem fair.

No bugs.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:34 pm

Well you came close on some guesses, and though I know you were having fun with that, it is a common question I get. There are alligators in the creek about 50 yards from our campsite right now, but that's no big deal. Sometimes the foresters we work with carry a pistol in case they run across a big wild hog in deep brush. Snakes used to be a pain in the ass in that when I had an Hispanic crew, as soon as a snake was discovered everyone would stop planting and work together to kill the snake with their planting bars. This wasn't really negotiable; for them, when a snake was found, it had to be killed, whether it was a dangerous one or not. That was just how they roll. Fortunately snakes are in the same category as bugs...if snakes are out, you probably could have scheduled the job better, so you only see them at the beginning and end of the season. The biggest problem about a snake is the way your heart jumps sometimes when you first see it. Otherwise, I hate ground-nesting bees/wasps/hornets a lot more than snakes, but that is a summer time problem in the woods, not a winter time problem.

I was offered yet more work today, that I'll probably have to turn down. It is just way too hard to hire Americans to do hard work. I handed out a couple dozen business cards at the festival last weekend and haven't got a phone call or email from anyone. Fortunately I did get to see the New Mastersounds with special guest Fred Wesley, and that was priceless.

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:50 pm

My favorite moment of this past summer was when I got a text from Nate on the last day of the season, and he said, "Um, what page of the Folklore Safety Manual covers 'Attack by Wild Boars'?" And this was Alberta.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:13 pm

gators next to camp?? i guess that's your equivelant of black bears. you have bears around on occasion? but no bugs... wow.

Scooter wrote:My favorite moment of this past summer was when I got a text from Nate on the last day of the season, and he said, "Um, what page of the Folklore Safety Manual covers 'Attack by Wild Boars'?" And this was Alberta.

please do tell us more.

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:15 pm

Well, it might be a bit of a let-down (thankfully) since there didn't end up being an attack, but maybe I'll let Nate tell the story if he feels like it some night ...

burnout · Post by **burnout** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:39 am

Newforest - If you can put your phone # up here or a way to get it I will pass it along. I am a contractor in MT and I can run it through some circles.
Ya never know ! Oh - Is this a hoedad job(s)?
Cheers B

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:44 pm

there is a contact email button on my blog, the address was on my first post. it's on the "Where's Brian?" page.

I don't like hoe-dads, too many repetitive-motion injuries in my opinion. here are my thoughts on my tool of choice, and an entry point to the blog:

http://web.me.com/newforestservices/tre ... ool_1.html

I guess I didn't discuss hoe-dads on there, maybe I will someday in my copious amounts of spare time. Other times we use the "King of Spades" shovels, I've never found a better one.

burnout · Post by **burnout** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:34 am

Newforest - I have the info. Thanks

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:23 am

your site is pretty fascinating, i've always wondered about planting in america. so you never use the style of planting shovel we use up here? as far as dibbles go that one you have modified looks handy, although a sharpened workwizer shovel i would imagine would be a better tool in most ground. although the tubes they use in some parts of the world and in the maritimes, those seem to be the fastest, at least on very easy prepped ground.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:51 pm

I would be interested in seeing some of the tools used in Canada. The word 'shovel' to me always implies a curved blade, even if it is only slightly curved. I prefer a flat blade and a good solid step to put a boot on to. I think I will be trying out some 'KBC' bars later this season though. We use a transplant spade on occasion for great big bare-root stock, but generally you can just make a double-wide slit with the bar for such seedlings and I only have a couple of those spades. Terra Tech sold me a 'Wolverine' brand shovel but the same design from the King of Spades is much lighter...

I would like that some blade/step design on a long straight handle rather than the modified T-handle on the bars I use, but I have never seen such a combo. I occasionally talk with the equipment guy at Terra Tech in Oregon about designing a new tool but nothing ever comes of that.

The 'tubes' for planting plugs do not appeal to me at all. They are very expensive and seem only useful on super clean sites. They also rely on some moving parts that would obviously break a lot in regular production use. One of the wholesale nurseries in Michigan is always pushing them on me as if I can't figure out how to plant a plug without their special tube planter. Even dibble bars with a round prong on the end to make a hole don't look good to me ("It will perfectly match the size of the plug! They're great!" - until you get a different plug design from somewhere else). Generally in tree planting you have to move some dirt and a flat blade can always do this for you ... other tools can't. I can't be running around with multiple sets of tools for multiple types of stock and jobsites.

I've been working on my books and the joyous intricacies of multi-state jobsites with multi-state employees and their taxes and proper worker's comp insurance....what a nightmare....but eventually I will be working on my blog a lot more.

Rainman · Post by **Rainman** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:26 pm

For shovels, I have found that I like these the best...

http://www.workwizer.ca/

The only beef I have is that they wear down quite fast. A season and a half is all it seems to last before the blade is worn down to the point where I want a new blade (which can be purchased separately). For the amount of work I do, a new blade every year and a new handle every 3-4 years is fine with me. For me, these shovels made planting easier, even after (many) years of other ones.

My personal favorite is the asymmetrical with left kicker. Less hang ups in the coastal slash.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:14 pm

thanks for the link. someday I want to try a "44" / 112cm Asymmetric (R) Kicker + Staff"

I have heard that a Staff handle is better for the planter's hands than a D handle over the long term. I think I would still prefer the blade I have on my "OST" dibble bars though. I'm pretty bummed that the tool company that used to make them for me got undercut by someone making a cheaper version but with a shorter blade.

I can't tell from the pictures how much curve there is to the blades on those. I want a perfectly flat blade.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:56 pm

Rainman wrote:For shovels, I have found that I like these the best...

http://www.workwizer.ca/

The only beef I have is that they wear down quite fast. A season and a half is all it seems to last before the blade is worn down to the point where I want a new blade (which can be purchased separately). For the amount of work I do, a new blade every year and a new handle every 3-4 years is fine with me. For me, these shovels made planting easier, even after (many) years of other ones.

My personal favorite is the asymmetrical with left kicker. Less hang ups in the coastal slash.

my first workwizer was nice and light but the blade bent too quickly... that one was free, the next year i bought one though, red shaft, basically indestructible. the rubber wore off the handle but that's it. however i've seen some of their shovels since that seem to be of lesser character, which is a shame.

yeah newforest, as you can see they're not really curved, except width-wise a bit. that combined with the angle it's pointing is perfect for me for opening the hole. different blade shapes open different holes as you know and i'm not always sure what i prefer, but the one pictured is great. i wouldn't plant with something that was totally flat or then i'd be wasting too much time trying to close it afterwards, in comparison.

Seabass · Post by **Seabass** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:06 pm

I used the D handle for my first year and a half then switched to the staff for the rest of that second season and 3 1/2 additional seasons before switching back to a D for the last season and a half. While I still own a staff and it's great on the wrists, I found that I can move quite a bit quicker in the fast prepped land with the D. However, when the land isn't prepped the numbers aren't too different. It's nice having the option, but not once during this past season did I take the staff to the block with me.

Rainman's right about the workwizers too. Great shovels but those blades wear down quite quickly. But when you compare the workwizer to the bushpro's that rooks get handed, you'd want the workwizer 99.9% of the time. The only thing I've found the bushpro's better for is shovel toss. The plastic handles on the workwizers break too easily if you toss them and they hit a rock or the road in the right spot.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:14 pm

oh i was also going to mention about D-handles... staffs are easier on the wrist but i think you basically need someone who can show them how to make use of them properly. they have pros and cons and can be fast but only if people take advantage of their length. don't see many staffs around any longer. i've never gotten tendinitis and i've used exclusively D-handles however the first few days of the season i take it easy and totally back off if my wrist feels susceptible. also i think everyone using these shovels should use Impactos...

they have padded palms and absorb some of the shock. if you use them at the beginning, and also keep a loose grip, i think D-handles are the best option.

as for workwizers i can shovel toss from any height without any fear of them breaking, and i toss a lot. the blade never bends. it wears down over time and also i file it every morning but still it's lasted 3 seasons and is a bit short now but usable on most land. maybe if you order direct you can request one of these heftier models?

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:27 pm

I just use a big winter glove on my shovel hand, switching to a leather glove with a reinforced palm if it gets too hot. My guys this year can't be talked in to wearing a glove at all. Some of them are pig-headed types who you have to tell them "turn left" when you want them to go to the right, however, so it's just young people, newly independent in the world, being stubborn about that. The guy with some pain in his knuckles picked up some gloves a lot like those and he is much happier.

My OST bars last about three seasons, more if I don't do much work with Longleaf Pine which is generally planted on sandy sites. Sand wears down blades more than other soils. I think I like the "1/2 T" handle after I cut off the other side even more than a D handle.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:29 pm

I will be doing my first big "mountaintop" job later this spring. I plan to experiment with a "KBC" bar, not much time to post pics tonight but will some other day. I think my OST bars will work OK. But it is an intense site ... steep, and composed of large chunks of sandstone for the most part. Not a natural soil at all, but a post-mining one.

Post by **Scooter** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:42 pm

newforest wrote:I have heard that a Staff handle is better for the planter's hands than a D handle over the long term.

I've planted about three-quarters of a million trees with a D-handle, and I can still type 100wpm, play classical piano like a maestro, and masturbate like a motherfucker. The D-handle hasn't done anything to my hand or wrist except maybe make them superhuman.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:46 am

it's a balance of how strong your wrists naturally are, how hard the ground is, and how fast you want to go. there's ways to go pretty fast while stepping on the kicker but if you can develop a good spring-loaded thrust into the tough soil, without hitting rocks, that can speed you up. i came closer to tendinitis in my last few seasons i think so my wrists i think got a bit weaker over the years. actually i came even closer from a day of digging, before the planting season.

the part of the body that feels indestructible after ten years of planting is my ankles. especially during the season i can run down a slashy steep block with no fear of twisting them. but hey that's a similar feeling i had about my back in my early twenties...

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:45 am

only an experienced tree planter can walk a couple hundred yards across a roundwood clrearcut without ever putting a foot on the actual ground

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:08 pm

this will be open all the way through April if anyone was wondering

I am, however, getting closer to throwing in the towel and applying for some H-2 visas for next season. If I can get just one planter to last through an entire season to hopefully develop into a crew leader / driver someday, it will be a miracle. The 20something generation is so ridiculously full of themselves, they deserve their 25% unemployment rate, I frequently think. Two of them walked up to me after a rained-out morning and told me they wouldn't work that afternoon, and that "wasn't negotiable."

It turns out that at about $14/hr, I am paying too much perhaps, but that is beyond my control on a Federal contract. Several planters bailed, because at 21 years of age, having $3000 in the bank seems like as good a reason as any to quit a job.

muscleyskeleton · Post by **muscleyskeleton** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:49 pm

newforest wrote:this will be open all the way through April if anyone was wondering

I am, however, getting closer to throwing in the towel and applying for some H-2 visas for next season. If I can get just one planter to last through an entire season to hopefully develop into a crew leader / driver someday, it will be a miracle. The 20something generation is so ridiculously full of themselves, they deserve their 25% unemployment rate, I frequently think. Two of them walked up to me after a rained-out morning and told me they wouldn't work that afternoon, and that "wasn't negotiable."

It turns out that at about $14/hr, I am paying too much perhaps, but that is beyond my control on a Federal contract. Several planters bailed, because at 21 years of age, having $3000 in the bank seems like as good a reason as any to quit a job.

Man that is just too bad... I'm barely experienced (just one season) but that kind of shit would never fly at my last company... if your working an afternoon "wasn't negotiable" then neither was your employment, or lack thereof.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:53 pm

back up to six people now, though one woman (first one for my new business though I had a great female planter each year when I had a small American crew in the late 90s; anyone who can through-hike the Appalachian Trail can handle this job) is making the youngest guy look pretty silly...he has a new problem for me - he broke his glasses six months ago and has never bought new ones or contacts. I just found this out after patiently showing him the already planted line he was standing in for about the five millionth time today. I have to tell him that he has to buy new contacts or quit. He is also one of those rocket scientists who thinks he can just quit working and talk on the phone whenever it rings, until I yell across the site at him at least. But as usual trying to fill this job, I have to take the bullshit from these kids or else give the work back to my competitors with the Hispanic crews. My reefer now costs money as I have gone over the nursery's offer of a free rental and I have another paid Federal holiday coming up. All I will get out of this contract is some trained planters ready for the next three months.

I still can't quite count up the number of people who have said they are coming.

Meanwhile, 1 in 8 Americans are now receiving Food Stamps from the government. (about $200 / monthly via a plastic debit card that can only be used to purchase food).

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:31 am

You have a lot of different problems than we do.

I don't want to sound harsh, but if these people are being paid hourly, tell them to check their cells & PDA's at the door. For Canadians (ignoring the fact that we often aren't in cell service) it would be counter-productive for planters to bring their tech-toys with them into their pieces. Since Canadians are usually paid based on production, there would be pressure from three sides to avoid this sort of situation:

- Pressure from personal production goals; hopefully the planter would have the common sense to focus on the job at hand and realize that their paycheque depends on their own diligence and hard work.
- Pressure from the foreman, who usually (but not always) makes commission based on the planters' production/earnings.
- Pressure from other crew members, who in most parts of western Canada would tell the planter to stop acting like such a bitch and either plant some trees, or quit and go back to their mama.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:26 am

Oh I understand all those points very well. I just can't pay production to new people working on a Federal contract, and my good planters do give short shrift to the assholes like that. I am trying as hard as I possibly can to cross every 't' and dot every 'i' on this contract, actually hoping for an audit on it someday. My Federal government will be one of the main reforestation clients for the next few years, with a lot of work in the pipeline. They just signed a contract grow for plugs for 33% less than what I am paying right now though, and I got a huge price break over the year before so my grower could sell more of the seed he had already planted. Even the nursery trade is turning ugly now.

A new planter due to arrive tonight or tomorrow. But that was the word five days ago, with no contact since. It burns me out to spend 30 minutes or more talking to a potential, when my own cell time is extremely limited by coverage issues on most of my blocks right now.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:15 pm

I learned the other day that Canadians are eligible to become H-2B workers in the USA. I did not know that. There will be a 900,000 tree (Longleaf Pine - almost always planted in sand) contract in Florida next season (December & January is tree planting time there) .... US$ 14 / hour minimum wages mandated in contract....

Americans will never plant trees again most likely, at least until the Chinese call in their loans and we can't print money fast enough to give anyone food stamps any more ...

Mr. Amazing · Post by **Mr. Amazing** » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:20 am

newforest wrote:I learned the other day that Canadians are eligible to become H-2B workers in the USA. I did not know that. There will be a 900,000 tree (Longleaf Pine - almost always planted in sand) contract in Florida next season (December & January is tree planting time there) .... US$ 14 / hour minimum wages mandated in contract....

Americans will never plant trees again most likely, at least until the Chinese call in their loans and we can't print money fast enough to give anyone food stamps any more ...

OK, so what's your point?! Great, 900 000 trees a year from now in Florida. For $14 an hour, I'd be looking to plant no more than 140 an hour. Will this be close to the beach? How much is a case of Rolling Rock these days?

Post by **Scooter** » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:32 am

At least it's Florida! Might be more interesting than a minimum wage job in rural Canada, knee deep in slush.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:18 pm

just babbling. Rolling Rock would run about 17 a case these days I would guess but it's been a long time since I drank that. I stick to Bell's Two-Hearted Ale whenever possible.

those are US $ of course. 14 is a little less than double minimum wage here. at that rate I don't make any money either for what it takes to win a bid here anyway.

I'm not sure it will ever work out to get gringos to plant trees. I've trained 11 people this year and currently have 2. Americans just don't have a work ethic needed to plant trees any more. I grew up in the country cutting firewood and tree planting has always seemed easy to me; you plant the first tree and just get in the zone and an hour later your bag is empty. Americans grow up in suburbs now and resent the idea of physical work. Even the people who can handle it don't plan on doing it longer than it takes to get a couple paychecks and then wander away and look for something else.

In the long run I now know I will be applying for foreign visas somehow, someday, unless my government somehow makes people go to work at all the jobs currently filled by illegal immigrants, which I doubt will ever happen. But it's almost irrelevant for me ... I think it is already too late to try and get visas for the 2010/11 season. Once you get on that treadmill you can never get off though. You spend a lot of money on the paperwork and then you have no choice but to bid aggressively just to have work to make your investment worthwhile to start with. And you have to pay for housing for all the people you bring in, 7 days a week working or not. Nothing is left to pay a good wage really.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:24 pm

for $14 an hour in sand i would/will come plant in florida during the winter for a month or two, just to see the place. well that is if you or another contractor of repute was hiring. i guess if i'm not bothered with bear attacks then gators shouldn't frighten me either?

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:07 pm

Alligators would mostly be hibernating and/or very sluggish right around then

Got to work with my old Hispanic crew today. Some 10 year veterans and an average across 13 planters of probably 5 years in. It was a very good day.

Unfortunately I learned from their crew leader, a long-time friend of mine who once supervised me for a week, including a miserable day we were all sooooo thirsty that we rolled the dice on drinking out of a farm ditch and got away with it ... anyway he keeps a tab on what is happening in the business too. He learned recently that one of the big contractors here is still taking property deeds from the planters they recruit in Central America. Once the poor kid is here planting, they can't quit or otherwise protest their working conditions (working at $5 / hour this season was the word he got from some of them) or they could lose that deed. Some contractors got in slight trouble for this a few years ago and I thought the vile practice had been stopped, but apparently not. If I had a rocket launcher...