2010 Public Bid Results

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:27 pm

I'm going to start this thread to collect all BCTS & Forsite tender awards that I can find that relate to the spring/summer seasons for 2010. I'll type up the data in the post, and then attach the relevant PDF.

Please note that it will take a few weeks before I get around to looking for or posting most of the info. Some bids are still being announced, so there's no rush, and I'm pretty swamped at the bar and restaurant until after the Last Day of Fall Classes at the University on December 7th. After that, I'll have some pretty quiet downtime to catch up on projects like this.

But in the meantime, I do have one tender that I saw a few minutes ago. I'd give this one the slogan of "things you did not expect to see."

If anyone else wants to help with this project in the meantime, please go ahead. I'd just ask maybe that you try to follow the same posting format (ie. typing up the numbers in ranked order rather than just attaching a PDF) so that people can see the info more quickly and logically. Thanks ...

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:31 pm

Organization: Forsite (not a direct BCTS contract)
Project #: TEN008
Contract Number: FFT2010-PL002
Location: Lillooet TSA

$392,701.88 Zanzibar Holdings
$426,233.82 Blue Collar Silviculture
$447.533.45 Coast Range Contracting
$524,447.24 Brinkman
$544,897.66 Leader
$547,347.24 Dynamic
$557,008.28 Akehurst & Giltrap
$592,286.40 Khaira Enterprises
$786,549.58 Folklore

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:17 pm

Whenever possible it would make a lot more sense of bid results if people could include the number of trees involved per contract. That would give us all a better yatrdstick to measure the prices against. Having said that, I know that the Forsite FFT bids included lots of sketchy access and contractors were required to do their own Danger Tree Assessment - take note planters because if you have your DTA ticket you've just become way more employable. Following are the number of trees for each of the three Forsite jobs I've found so far.

Contract 1 - 859,000 Chase/Kamloops
Contract 2 - 691,380 the one above Zanzibar got for an average of $56.79 - don't forget including heli, DTA etc.
Contract 3 - 657,200 Princeton/etc.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:28 pm

Check out these results from more Summer FFT work up around McKenzie tendered by IFS;

Contract 01 is for 352,620 trees and the winning bid is 17.57 cents
Contract 2 is for 813,944 trees and the winning bid is 18.3 cents

I suppose this means less than 10 cents to planters.........

Apex is accepting both jobs.

Tender Ranking 1090006-01

Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 61,987.45
Folklore Contracting 63,224.82
Artisan Reforestation Ltd. 63,720.84
Dynamic Reforestation Ltd. 66,787.20
Summit Reforestation 70,524.00
Evergreen Forest Services 72,926.46
Spectrum Resources 76,889.76
Rhino Reforestation Inc. 76,962.96
Blue Collar Silvictulture Ltd. 77,319.90
Brinkman & Associates 81,150.84
Celtic Reforestation 81,455.22
Coast Range Contracting 82,865.70
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 92,221.20
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 94,854.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 171,627.00

Tender Ranking 1090006-02
Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 148,982.93
Summit Reforestation 162,788.80
Folklore Contracting 164,514.26
Brinkman & Associates 166,044.58
Artisan Reforestation 175,327.72
Dynamic Reforestation 182,411.45
Spectrum Resources 186,348.67
Coast Range 186,914.17
Evergreen Forest 195,921.93
Blue Collar Silvictulture 196,137.20
Celtic Reforestation 196,974.45
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 236,043.70
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 300,363.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 374,428.40

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:42 pm

Here's another one I've seen that's kinda scary - BCTS-Vernon - This contract is close to Lumby and is for 385,000 trees;

Tender results for PL11TKJ003

Coast Range - $89,995.90 - 23.3 cents!!
Blue Collar - 94,987.50
AKD - 97,636.00
Timberline - 102,157.50 - 26.5 cents
Rhino - 104,942.37
Celtic - 110,905.20
Summit - 112,059.00
Seneca - 116,662.00
Brinkman - 118,577.30 - 30.8 cents
Evergreen - 126,903.90
A&G - 127,247.00
Raven - 138,664.00
SimNat - 138,991.00
Dewan - 146,490.00
Hawkeye - 150,345.00
Folklore - 164,534.60

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:54 pm

Results for PL10TCC062 - BCTS Sunshine Coast - includes 118,780 trees & 36,200 cones - also includes heli and boat work and expensive logistics

Khaira - $90,970.60
Rainforest - $128,927.00
Stephan - $135,618.20
Brinkman - $148,150.44
Timberline - $151,104.48
Fieldstone - $154,663.40
Evergreen - $157,545.50
Osprey - $165,206.44
Impact - $165,579.60

Kaira has no idea and will drop this. Rainforest and Stephan are risking their reputations at these prices. Brinkman is walking the line as is indicated by the fact that everyone who normally works these areas including some pretty notorious low bidders are above them.

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:26 pm

Wow

, when you're bidding slightly more than 1/2 of what even Osprey is bidding something is wrong.

But on the other hand, I doubt Timberline or Evergreen would make bids they couldn't make money on.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:46 pm

Khaira is one of those companies run by some suit who sits in an office in Vancouver or Calgary and fires in bids without having a clue. For them it's like a lottery. If by some chance they score and are low by a hair, they have a commodity that they will then try to subcontract to some unsuspecting or desperate contractor for a percentage. These are the worst kind of pariahs out there as if they are successful, they drain off money that should have gone to the workers and give nothing in return. The guillotine was invented for people like this - the same ilk as bond traders.

If you look at the IFS FFT bid results in a post above you'll see that Khaira is way above everyone else. Their bid on the prepped flats there is probably the same per tree as their bid on the Jervis Inlet heli show. Bidders like this should be disqualified by BCTS and FFT as they are obviously speculators.

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:32 pm

Great info Coaster, thanks.

One clarification. You mentioned:

Having said that, I know that the Forsite FFT bids included lots of sketchy access and contractors were required to do their own Danger Tree Assessment - take note planters because if you have your DTA ticket you've just become way more employable. Following are the number of trees for each of the three Forsite jobs I've found so far.

This again is good info - I always make sure I have two DTA's in my camp, although I usually put people through the course rather than hire outsiders. However, it should be made clear that on some jobs, DTA's are inadequate in the opinion of the foresters or licensees, and a faller will be required to snag-fall all of the blocks. This is BC of course, not Alberta.

Richianity · Post by **Richianity** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:28 pm

Looks to me like there will be a lot of bankruptcies in 2010 in the silviculture business (...I'm almost rooting for some of them!).

I'd be pretty anal about getting my pay every 2 weeks and I'd be pretty concerned if my employer didn't pay me on time. Something for the young uni folk out there to keep in mind. Protect yourself.

barnbill · Post by **barnbill** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:33 pm

Coaster wrote:Khaira is one of those companies run by some suit who sits in an office in Vancouver or Calgary and fires in bids without having a clue. For them it's like a lottery. If by some chance they score and are low by a hair, they have a commodity that they will then try to subcontract to some unsuspecting or desperate contractor for a percentage. These are the worst kind of pariahs out there as if they are successful, they drain off money that should have gone to the workers and give nothing in return. The guillotine was invented for people like this - the same ilk as bond traders.

If you look at the IFS FFT bid results in a post above you'll see that Khaira is way above everyone else. Their bid on the prepped flats there is probably the same per tree as their bid on the Jervis Inlet heli show. Bidders like this should be disqualified by BCTS and FFT as they are obviously speculators.

KHAIRA
RE-FOREST SERVICES
looking for Labours for Forest
Tree-planting and Brushing
$16 without Experience
$17 with experience
15 cents per tree
WAGES :
BY HOURS
PIECE WORK WAGES
FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL
Mr Bajwa - 604-760-1304
Mr Hardil Preet - 604-307-3537

want ad from apr 2009

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:45 pm

Barnbill, thanks for the Khaira ad. I know they actually do some of the contracts they get. I know that Dewan subcontracts regularly. I have friends who have been burned badly by being involved in that. I've tarred them all with the same brush. I have little sympathy for suits who never set foot on the block. I've seen them at the viewings nodding and smiling.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:16 pm

wow zanzibar bit slightly more than half of what folklore did? and yeah rainforest has or at least had a great rep.

Richianity · Post by **Richianity** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:32 pm

I have absolutely no information to make any kind of decision on anything, but this thread makes me think about this whole fiasco:

A bitter harvest for B.C. berry pickers
In a lengthy and stinging ruling, judge details near-feudal conditions endured by immigrant workers harvesting produce

ROBERT MATAS

VANCOUVER — From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published on Saturday, Apr. 19, 2008 1:02PM EDT

Last updated on Monday, Mar. 30, 2009 3:29PM EDT

In a stinging 801-page ruling on an employment insurance scam, a federal Tax Court judge says widespread exploitation of Indo-Canadian berry pickers in fields outside Vancouver is reminiscent of scenes from John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.

"When a 65-year-old grandmother leaves her village in India, travels nearly two days to Vancouver and is hired within a week by a labour contractor who transports her - at dawn and back at night - in a crowded van for up to eight hours a day so she can earn eight hours pay at minimum wage - or less if paid on piece rate - something is radically wrong with certain aspects of the federal family reunification program and also the berry and vegetable industry in British Columbia," Dwayne Rowe, a Tax Court of Canada judge, stated in a ruling issue this week.

"One of the reasons for enduring such hardship is that the elderly worker, her family and her co-workers have been assured they will receive cheques from the Canadian government during the winter months, provided they obey - absolutely - the dictates of their employers and pay the full amounts of tribute exacted at their discretion during the settling up meeting."

The lengthy court case involved an appeal by 75 berry pickers against a decision of the federal government to uphold administrative efforts to refuse payment of employment insurance benefits for work done during 1997. The pickers were employed by S & S Harvesting Ltd. in strawberry, raspberry and blueberry fields in the Vancouver region and in the neighbouring Fraser Valley.

The federal government maintained that the pickers had not worked as much as they claimed in applications for benefits.

Judge Rowe considered the appeals of each of the 75 berry pickers separately. He dismissed the appeal of some of the workers and allowed others, depending on the testimony and documents in each case.

Along the way to reviewing their appeals, Judge Rowe heard graphic tales of exploitation of new immigrants and details of what the judge described as an elaborate employment insurance scam.

The judge was also convinced by the testimony that conditions for the berry pickers had not changed much over the past decade.

The situation continues with new variations and twists, he wrote. Strawberry and raspberry pickers "are restricted to more or less the same dismal earnings as they generated in 1997," Judge Rowe stated.

Param Grewal, who testified as an expert in labour practices in the local farming industry, said some people bought a work record that would qualify them for employment insurance and did not actually do the job. Some who worked but not long enough to qualify for employment insurance would pay the employer a sum of money in exchange for a suitable working record, the court heard. Some berry pickers worked all season and the only reward for their labour was a work card with sufficient hours to entitle them to employment insurance benefits.

James Walton, an industrial relations officer involved in a review in 1997 of payroll records of 87 licensed and bonded farm labour contractors, told the court that "100 per cent" of the contractors had breached one or more regulations, many of which pertained to the core issue of proper and timely payment of wages.

Mr. Walton characterized the overwhelming majority of payroll records prepared and maintained by labour contractors as "unreliable, inaccurate and not credible, particularly with respect to the number of hours worked during the course of the employment."

Judge Rowe stated that the scam worked as long as it did in the 75 cases reviewed at the trial because of the "Svengali-like control" that labour contractor Surjit Randhawa of S & S Harvesting had over his employees, all of whom were members of the Indo-Canadian community. "To the majority of them, he was a god-like figure who had to be obeyed, even years later when they no longer had any relationship with him," the judge wrote.

Judge Rowe makes an unusual direct appeal in his ruling to the government to take actions to protect the vulnerable berry pickers and to consider launching criminal prosecutions. Although he was dealing with civil matters and not a criminal charge, Judge Rowe reminded the government that counselling someone to make a false statement under oath is a criminal offence. He also drew attention to a list of other crimes, including creating false documents, forgery and falsifying employment records.

Judge Rowe estimated that the federal government spent several million dollars on the investigation of the employment insurance scam and the court case. His ruling is one of the longest ever issued by the Tax Court of Canada, a court official said.

Neither the Canada Revenue Agency nor the Department of Justice would comment yesterday on the case. Both sides in the case have until May 16 to decide whether they will appeal. Mr. Randhawa's labour contracting company, S & S Harvesting, no longer has a phone listing. A phone call to Mr. Randhawa's current business ended abruptly as soon as a Globe and Mail reporter identified himself.

In their own words

The lives of the berry pickers were described in detail in court:

Bhajan Kaur Badesha

Bhajan Kaur Badesha was 64 when she testified, lived with her husband but did not know her address or telephone number. She did not know her date of birth and was not in good health. She and her husband came to Canada in 1992. She had no education and could not read nor write Punjabi nor English. Shortly after arriving in Canada, she went to work on farms alongside friends and relatives. She said she was picked up at her residence at 6 a.m. at least six days a week and sometimes seven. She started her day in the fields around 7 a.m. and worked 12 or 13 hours. She did not know the government-prescribed rate for her work. She said she had 740 insurable hours of work; the government said 289 hours. The judge found that Ms. Badesha was not a credible witness and lied during her testimony, but decided she worked 480 insurable hours.

THANA SINGH

Thana Singh testified that he taught in a primary school in India for 32 years before coming to Canada. He also worked on a family farm. He arrived in Canada with his wife and their son and daughter on Dec. 9, 1996, and started work two months later putting nets over ginseng plants in fields near Cache Creek. He was picked up at 4:30 a.m. and travelled up to five hours to the work site. When they left Vancouver, it was cold and dark. They worked in the fields for eight hours and then were driven back to their homes. There was no pay for travelling time. He estimated the total work day was 16 hours. "For the most part, his testimony was not believable and he had a track record of deception and lies," Judge Rowe said before deciding he had worked 621 insurable hours in 1997, and not 936 as he had claimed.

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:48 pm

Organization: Forsite
Project #: TEN-008
Contract #: FFT2010-PL003
Merritt TSA, Headwaters Forest District

This contract is for 660,000 trees. 50% are spring trees near Princeton, and 50% are summer Hellroar (Blue River)), all heli. Staging site is 6.5km away and 700m elevation climb. Responsible for DTA, falling and helipad construction.

$368,511.60 Blue Collar
$375,784.50 Coast Range
$450,960.00 Zanzibar
$470,332.40 Akehurst & Giltrap
$489,885.76 Dynamic
$491,756.55 Brinkman
$515,452.00 Leader
$560,259.32 Khaira
$657,200.00 Raven Ventures

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:33 pm

Hmmm, there can be some stout land up in Blue River, easily as schnarby and technical as anything on the coast. The area just north of town (Hellroar) can be quite similar to the Kinbasket stuff in Golden. It's going to be a long walk in with the chainsaws to build those pads.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:31 am

thanks rich for posting that, i've seen that stuff my whole life with immigrants doing agriculture work, it's great to see a judge taking an interest.

filipinoboxspringhog · Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:24 pm

Khaira Re-forest Service. How can a company like this get its feet off the ground? The only mention of it online is from a classified add it took out in an Indo-Canadian Surrey, BC newspaper. This is just too weird.
Also they misspell Revelstoke, Ravelstoke. Innocent typo or indication of utter ignorance.

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:28 pm

Hugo Pants · Post by **Hugo Pants** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:31 pm

PL11TFF001 - Boundary

1 Evergreen Forest Services Ltd. - 407,563.50
2 Brinkman & Associates Reforestation Ltd. - 436,129.73
3 Akehurst & Giltrap Reforestation - 420,200.48

I don't know how many trees there are...

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:35 pm

Let's try an experiment. Don't even bother deluding yourself that I would have or want to find the time to do the same thing to every public result posted here, IF this even works, but let's try something just for shits & giggles. I am going to try to post some links to the Forsite PL002 contract.

First, a direct link to what I think might be the approximate location of the blocks, in Google Maps.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=en&i ... 90895&z=14

Ok, that's cool and all, whatever. But let's try something even better. Here's the location that I have for this:

52.12’.16.24”N 119.09’.46.14”W

Find that in Google Maps. Unfortunately, you can't cut & paste the lats and longs into the Google Earth browser, so I am going to try to attach a different way of doing it. Download the file at the following link:

http://www.replant.ca/graphics/Google%2 ... -PL002.kmz

A “kmz” file is one created by Google Earth which gives the data to find a specific point. So if you download it and double-click on it, Google Earth should open automatically and take you to that point, if you have Google Earth installed on your computer. Upgrade to version 5 if you haven't already. I know that this isn’t convenient. I was hoping to attach the .KMZ file to this post, but the message board won’t let me authorize this type of file as a valid attachment. I even tried changing the extension to a few different file types and attaching that way, so users could download, change the extension back to KMZ, and then go from there. However, the message board is smart enough not to allow that. Too bad – it would have been an easy way for ALL users to attach Google Earth links. I’ll have to look into this in more detail someday – I haven’t actually used Google Earth that much.

Anyway, once you’re in Google Earth and you’ve found the right place, do some angle-of-inclination stuff. You can really see how steep that valley is. For all the flat-landers out there, you probably wouldn't like planting on this contract! This particular area has good, high-resolution coverage.

Here's a link again to the bid results:

Organization: Forsite (not a direct BCTS contract)
Project #: TEN008
Contract Number: FFT2010-PL002
Location: Lillooet TSA

$392,701.88 Zanzibar Holdings
$426,233.82 Blue Collar Silviculture
$447.533.45 Coast Range Contracting
$524,447.24 Brinkman
$544,897.66 Leader
$547,347.24 Dynamic
$557,008.28 Akehurst & Giltrap
$592,286.40 Khaira Enterprises
$786,549.58 Folklore

Ben Mac · Post by **Ben Mac** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:52 pm

Yeah google earth is an awesome tool, luckily I wrote down some lats and longs of old blocks I planted and looked at them through google earth and they never quite look the same as up close.
But judging from the last link Scooter posted you can actually see the elevation changes, just scroll the mouse over all the land and it shows the elevation wherever the cursor is. Some of the pieces drop 200m from the roadside and some have gulleys...but yeah that doesn't look to appealing even from an areal shot.
Thanks for the link it works great by the way

Post by **Scooter** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:08 pm

And I'm guessing, from the fact that the company has to walk in over six kilometers to build heli-pads, to fly in the people, that the road must be completely deactivated and useless.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:20 pm

Any more news about the contract bidding, who won what ? Or just a website ?

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:49 pm

Coaster wrote:one of those companies run by some suit who sits in an office

I compete against what I call 'brokers' all the time. Their bids never make any sense. They are either really high or really low or the same as mine sometimes. Recently one bid within a few dollars of me basically at the same fraction of a cent per stem but perhaps not the same fraction on the stems per acre figure (neither of us won that one). For a different, more complicated job for the same potential client, they won ... at 40% of my price.

What I have learned over many years as an iron-clad rule is that the more people there are getting a cut in between the owner of the land and the tree planter, the worse it is for the outcome of the job (seedling survival) and the tree planter (pay).

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:25 am

Previously in this thread a particularly underbid contract for BCTS in Powell River was brought to light. Evergreen was one of the bidders and ended up writing a letter to BCTS expressing concern that the contractor who was awarded the work would not be able to do the job safely. Below is a letter John Betts of the WSCA sent to Reynold Hert the CEO of the BC Forest Safetry Council. It is a great example of how the WSCA works not only for the contractors but also for the workers.

Reynold:

Further to the discussion at the WSCA conference session regarding the hazards of West Coast contracting here are the particulars of the contract that I and some other contractors have cited as a potential problem.

BCTS Sunshine Coast
Bid administrators Kerry Davies, Dean Elzer
Contract #PL10TCC062 tender opening 11 November 2009

Tender results;

Khaira - $ 90,970.50
Rainforest - $128,927.00
Stephan - $135,618.20
Brinkman - $148,150.44
Timberline - $151,104.48
Fieldstone - $154,633.40
Evergreen - $157,545.50
Osprey - $165,206.44
Impact - $165,579.60

I am not sure when this planting contract is to begin. But being it is the Coast it could be soon. According to the contractors who brought this bid to my attention they have sent an email to BCTS laying out their concerns. Neither of the contractors are in a strong position to receive the contract should it not be awarded to the lowest bidder. This fact should remove some of the concern that this complaint has a self-serving motive. Both contractors are firms with decades of Coastal experience. BCTS has not replied to them.

I realize that by bringing this to your attention I am acting somewhat on hearsay. And although the bid spread is conspicuous, bid prices are not always reliable indicators of how the successful bidder will perform. Nevertheless, this was an office viewing for a remote contract with some unique operational demands. I am not sure what the prequalification criteria for the contract was and the information on that is no longer posted on the BC Bid or BCTS bid website. It may be that the relatively low number of trees has led to the lowering of prequalification standards including West Coast contract experience, previous performance, merit of any proposed strategies etc. However, in light of the other hazards including remoteness, absence of available local aid, marine access requirements, possible crew inexperience etc. the number of trees involved is not a good indicator of risk; certainly not from a safety perspective.

The use of office-viewings should also be a concern, especially for these remote inlet operations. I would think that the BCTS would have an enlightened self-interest in attracting bids from well-informed competent contractors. Paying the costs then of a mandatory site viewing may off-set any future expenses of a failed contract or worse. The expectation that BCTS must make contractors aware of all "known hazards" of the contract is admittedly ambiguous. But it is not an elastic clause that let's the client off the hook from taking all reasonable care to ensure bidders appreciate the hazards involved. I don't think an office-viewing for a remote West Coast inlet contract would meet that test. Known hazards should not just include the condition of the actual site. In this case it is unwise to ignore the general setting of this kind of West Coast work; it can be the major hazard, as experience has taught us.

Two issues:

1. What were the prequalification criteria and were they appropriate? What efforts were made to verify the qualifications of the lowest bidder?
2. Are office viewings a safe way to tender remote West Coast contracts? Do they meet the requirements of due diligence?

I am hoping you can raise this matter with BCTS as a general safety concern. In particular I am hoping that BCTS can be urged to exercise some immediate scrutiny of the present low bidder's qualifications and safety strategy to ensure they have the confidence he can complete the contract properly and safely.

Thanks for taking an interest in this.

Also thanks again for attending our conference. You made a very positive impression and provided some motivation that was timely.

JOHN

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:37 am

Good letter. I don't see how that bid can possibly result in anything other than disaster.

The mean average for the other bids is roughly $150,000, meaning Khaira's bid is 40% below average. While that's certainly unusual and pushes the limits of normal, coming in roughly 29% below the second lowest bid is astounding.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:07 am

I tend to disagree. Coming in roughly 29% below the second lowest bid is not astounding. Accepting the contract, when you realize this, is astounding.

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:13 pm

thanks for posting this, and please let us know if it results in any sort of action. if they expect planters to play safe out there they need to as an industry take more responsibility and not cut corners like this when they want to save money.

bush · Post by **bush** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:20 pm

what is forsite supervision like on the FFT contracts?

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:22 pm

In which area? It varies tremendously from region to region. Very little consistency in some areas, and very consistent in others.

bush · Post by **bush** » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:38 pm

how many contracts does forsite supervise in bc?

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:23 am

I would guess as many as a couple dozen? They have nine offices in BC, but each office might supervise more than one planting contact per season. I think the Kamloops office supervised three planting contracts last summer. They also do a lot of other forestry-related work, not just planting supervision.

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:23 am

Here's a link to their website ...

http://www.forsite.ca/

bushninja · Post by **bushninja** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:59 am

do you know why they supervise. why don't planting comanies bid on the contracts directly.

bushninja · Post by **bushninja** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:00 am

why wouldn't planting contractors bid on these fft contracts directly. or do they.

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:22 am

Yeah, the planting companies bid on the jobs directly. It's a odd situation. I'm not sure that I fully understand or can explain properly, so someone else can step in if they are more familiar with it.

From what I understand, BCTS (BC Timber Sales) regulates the sale of timber and manages the subsequent obligation to reforest, all on crown land. BC has a lot of crown land (over 85%, I think) whereas some provinces have very little (NS less than 25%, I think), so basically BCTS administers the harvest on the vast majority of the land throughout the province.

I think that BCTS generally focuses on regenerating stuff that has been recently cut. However, there are other projects that need to be done, ie. replenishing areas hit by beetle-kill or forest fires. And maybe some small harvest projects that might fall outside of the BCTS area of responsibility for whatever reason. Anyway, the province wants those projects tackled too, but rather than asking BCTS to administer them (ie. put out a call for tenders on the contract, award the contract, supervise the planting company), the province instead puts out a call for tenders to manage the planting contracts, rather than to plant them.

So then Forsite steps in and puts a bid in, competing against other forestry management/consulting firms. If Forsite wins the contract for an area, then they basically "take over" from BCTS, and performs roughly the same functions that BCTS would. I'm not sure of the exact scope, but I think that possibly Forsite (or whoever wins) might even do basic things like coming up with the planned prescription for the area, ie. species mix and density, etc. But I'm not positive about that - BCTS might specify some of those basic attributes.

So I think, in general, Forsite work is generally more complex than generic BCTS cutblocks, because you might get stands with a lot of timber still on them, ie. select harvested, or you might get beetle kill where all the wood is still standing, or you might get a burnover where a lot of the wood is still standing. So the blocks don't look so much like conventional blocks, and they can often be pretty confusing to walk around on, because you're less certain about block boundaries unless someone has used a GPS and delineated the boundaries carefully.

I've only worked for Forsite in the Kamloops area, so I can't say whether or not the blocks are "challenging" everywhere.

bushninja · Post by **bushninja** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:16 am

thanks. i suppose most of the fft is a little more complicated logistically. access and boundaries. they are fires. the fft i've done weren't suppervised by forsite, but by some other consulting company. 15 years ago forsite had one main office in salmon arm and one up in blue river or clearwater. i didn't realize they were so big. what about the fft princeton/blueriver. has there been planting there in 2009?

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:44 pm

These projects come from a different source of funding, BCTC is not involved. Last season Forsite was audited by PWW (I think)and were told to implement the contract by the book. 30x30 screef, mandatory backcuts etc. Look for very rigourous specs.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:13 pm

Forsite is probably the least organized of the contractors providing FFT planting projects. They're learning as they go but it's costing more than perhaps it should. Hard to say these days as bids aren't necessarily
that logical. Need supercedes all else. Forsite's viewing packages are on the low end of the spectrum.

Seisbot · Post by **Seisbot** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:03 am

filipinoboxspringhog wrote:Khaira Re-forest Service. How can a company like this get its feet off the ground? The only mention of it online is from a classified add it took out in an Indo-Canadian Surrey, BC newspaper. This is just too weird.
Also they misspell Revelstoke, Ravelstoke. Innocent typo or indication of utter ignorance.

FWIW , A couple of years ago i actually went to one of their brushing contracts about 65km down the BigBen? rd outside of golden BC for about 10 days. I will try and keep this story as short as possible.

Khaira Enterprises can afford to bid low because they hire indo-canadians who have no idea how much treeplanting or brushing should "actually" pay and have little opportunity to get better work as they don't speak much english. Kind of the same as the farm workers/judge post. The age range was between 18 and 65 yrs old. Most from India, working 3 months to save money to go back to India and be"rich" or to go on EI in Surrey or Abbotsford. They all had the same story. Didn't get a single cent till the end of the 3 months was over. The boss Mr Bajwa advanced cigarettes and mickeys of Five Star rye/whisky which I swear they each drank at least one every night. I saw crazy ass fights between a couple of them. One where 3 of the elders beat up the one younger guy hangin out with me because they didn't want him to associate with white people. They used anything they could grab.

They pay $16-17/hour. BUT they don't pay travel time.avg. 2 hrs/day Which is grossly underpaid for brushing or planting (illegal ??)

THE CAMP
No cook, he quit or was fired. Mr Bajwa got up at like 3:30 am and made Chai tea and others helped by baking naan bread and making some kind of vegi goolash they boiled later on. That's all i ate for the 10 days i was there. Breakfasf/Lunch/Dinner.No fridge, just a freezer full of 4L milk jugs for the Chai tea. Total food cost for a 15ish man camp was probably less than 40$ a day. Lots of dry goods. Chick peas,lentils , onions, spices..etc Tasted good but was weird eating the same thing every meal 0$ camp cost. There was a shower tent, but no shower head. A hose hooked up to a gas water heater was used to fill ginormous cooking pots in which they bathed themselves in. Others who didn't want to wait hosed themselves down in their underwear. Quite commical and not a sight for sore eyes

For the most part, they all slept in a really long horse-style trailer. Side by side about 1 1/2 feet appart with blankets and sleeping bags. Luggage at their feet.

By far the WORST CAMP SETUP EVER !! I think if the contract administrator saw this camp and gave a shit he would have closed them down. They should not be allowed to operate a company in this fashion.

When the contract was finished, they packed up camp till 1am and drove to Abbotsford/Surrey non-stop.

I will finish by saying these people are tough and that i feel that although everyone has a right to work and make money....there should be limits to the how low they can bid/pay regardless of country of origin. BCTS and Forsite need to impose the same OH&S and labour rules on these guys as the rest of the "real" silviculture companies uphold.

Hope this sheds some light as to why Khaira can actually bid so low and get people to do the work

SpACEwOOz · Post by **SpACEwOOz** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:26 am

Coaster wrote:Check out these results from more Summer FFT work up around McKenzie tendered by IFS;

Contract 01 is for 352,620 trees and the winning bid is 17.57 cents
Contract 2 is for 813,944 trees and the winning bid is 18.3 cents

I suppose this means less than 10 cents to planters.........

Apex is accepting both jobs.

Tender Ranking 1090006-01

Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 61,987.45
Folklore Contracting 63,224.82
Artisan Reforestation Ltd. 63,720.84
Dynamic Reforestation Ltd. 66,787.20
Summit Reforestation 70,524.00
Evergreen Forest Services 72,926.46
Spectrum Resources 76,889.76
Rhino Reforestation Inc. 76,962.96
Blue Collar Silvictulture Ltd. 77,319.90
Brinkman & Associates 81,150.84
Celtic Reforestation 81,455.22
Coast Range Contracting 82,865.70
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 92,221.20
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 94,854.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 171,627.00

Tender Ranking 1090006-02
Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 148,982.93
Summit Reforestation 162,788.80
Folklore Contracting 164,514.26
Brinkman & Associates 166,044.58
Artisan Reforestation 175,327.72
Dynamic Reforestation 182,411.45
Spectrum Resources 186,348.67
Coast Range 186,914.17
Evergreen Forest 195,921.93
Blue Collar Silvictulture 196,137.20
Celtic Reforestation 196,974.45
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 236,043.70
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 300,363.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 374,428.40

I planted both of these contract and we were getting between 14-17 cents for Wilintonish Walls and 10,5-12 for beach pine flat.

It was actually a good contract

Dont forget one thing: those contract were made up to close the Abitibi's book. So, no checkers at all... I think i've seen a black bear but it wasnt cheking trees...

TheHamsterizer · Post by **TheHamsterizer** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:39 pm

Seisbot wrote:
filipinoboxspringhog wrote:Khaira Re-forest Service. How can a company like this get its feet off the ground? The only mention of it online is from a classified add it took out in an Indo-Canadian Surrey, BC newspaper. This is just too weird.
Also they misspell Revelstoke, Ravelstoke. Innocent typo or indication of utter ignorance.

FWIW , A couple of years ago i actually went to one of their brushing contracts about 65km down the BigBen? rd outside of golden BC for about 10 days. I will try and keep this story as short as possible.

Khaira Enterprises can afford to bid low because they hire indo-canadians who have no idea how much treeplanting or brushing should "actually" pay and have little opportunity to get better work as they don't speak much english. Kind of the same as the farm workers/judge post. The age range was between 18 and 65 yrs old. Most from India, working 3 months to save money to go back to India and be"rich" or to go on EI in Surrey or Abbotsford. They all had the same story. Didn't get a single cent till the end of the 3 months was over. The boss Mr Bajwa advanced cigarettes and mickeys of Five Star rye/whisky which I swear they each drank at least one every night. I saw crazy ass fights between a couple of them. One where 3 of the elders beat up the one younger guy hangin out with me because they didn't want him to associate with white people. They used anything they could grab.

They pay $16-17/hour. BUT they don't pay travel time.avg. 2 hrs/day Which is grossly underpaid for brushing or planting (illegal ??)

THE CAMP
No cook, he quit or was fired. Mr Bajwa got up at like 3:30 am and made Chai tea and others helped by baking naan bread and making some kind of vegi goolash they boiled later on. That's all i ate for the 10 days i was there. Breakfasf/Lunch/Dinner.No fridge, just a freezer full of 4L milk jugs for the Chai tea. Total food cost for a 15ish man camp was probably less than 40$ a day. Lots of dry goods. Chick peas,lentils , onions, spices..etc Tasted good but was weird eating the same thing every meal 0$ camp cost. There was a shower tent, but no shower head. A hose hooked up to a gas water heater was used to fill ginormous cooking pots in which they bathed themselves in. Others who didn't want to wait hosed themselves down in their underwear. Quite commical and not a sight for sore eyes

For the most part, they all slept in a really long horse-style trailer. Side by side about 1 1/2 feet appart with blankets and sleeping bags. Luggage at their feet.

By far the WORST CAMP SETUP EVER !! I think if the contract administrator saw this camp and gave a shit he would have closed them down. They should not be allowed to operate a company in this fashion.

When the contract was finished, they packed up camp till 1am and drove to Abbotsford/Surrey non-stop.

I will finish by saying these people are tough and that i feel that although everyone has a right to work and make money....there should be limits to the how low they can bid/pay regardless of country of origin. BCTS and Forsite need to impose the same OH&S and labour rules on these guys as the rest of the "real" silviculture companies uphold.

Hope this sheds some light as to why Khaira can actually bid so low and get people to do the work

This is the best shitshow story I've ever heard! I don't think it can be topped. You're kind of lucky to have been there, now when anyone complains about a tough contract somewhere you can pull out this little anecdote. I'm pretty jealous actually, I thought I'd been on the worst contracts ever.

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:11 pm

I was on a staking contract for four days with Natural Borders in 1996, my seventh year in the bush. My best day was $27.50 earnings BEFORE camp costs of $25.00. I actually worked my ass off for a full day to make that, just to prove a point, because it was being insinuated that we were just sitting around all day. I believe that it was the only day anyone in our group broke even with camp costs. The typical earnings were around $12-16.

We had to stake trees in a field of fireweed up to our chests. The trees had been planted a few years before, and only about 5% at best were still living. Those that were, were covered in flattened fireweed or some sort of vegetation from the previous summer, so they were impossible to find, and practically any green needles on them. So we dug around on our hands and knees inside the fireweed on this shitty old block, using our hands to dig down through six inches of vegetation, trying to find the remnants of old trees with practically no needles. When we found one, we tried to make it stand up above the flattened vegetation, and then staked it, but then had to flatten down the fireweed for a foot around it so the brushers could find it again. Pretty stupid - essentially we were doing the brushing, although all we did was stomp it down.

25 cents a stake.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:19 pm

I just looked Khaira up on the BC Forest Safety Council website. They are certified as a small company. This means that they can only operate with less than 20 employees. To be certified as a large compny, which most planting contractors are, it is way more expensive and requires auditors every year. Does anyone out there know if Khaira operates with more than 20 workers at a time? Forcing them to at least meet the proper requirements might level the playing field a bit. Also does anyone know which contracts they got for 2010? They lowballed all of the FFT work from 100 Mile House to Quesnel but I don't know if they were awarded any of it?

SpACEwOOz · Post by **SpACEwOOz** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:47 pm

Just to add a bit on the Indo-company...

I planted 5 years on the 200rd, the one that connects around whiskers bay, 43km after bear lake on the 16th (heading north).

A strange company last year was running around. Big white pannel, just like East coast planting. They had no company # plate neither than radios. A guy with a turban was driving it.

I've met the pannel in Bear lake, by the Petro-Can. A bunch of west-african guys got out of the truck. As i speak french I ask them a couple question.

They were almost all from Ivory coast and getting paid 7-8 cents a pop. They were not canadian resident. They didn't wanna say more...

...

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:15 pm

ouch i did a week in that are for 9.5 to 10.5 cents last year and i felt like i was ripped off.

TopDollaBalla · Post by **TopDollaBalla** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:47 pm

Just found Khaira's website!

On it, they claim to be "Leaders in Reforestation". Look out PRT, they're coming ta getcha!

http://khaira-reforestation.com/default.html

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:40 pm

SpACEwOOz wrote:
Coaster wrote:Check out these results from more Summer FFT work up around McKenzie tendered by IFS;

Contract 01 is for 352,620 trees and the winning bid is 17.57 cents
Contract 2 is for 813,944 trees and the winning bid is 18.3 cents

I suppose this means less than 10 cents to planters.........

Apex is accepting both jobs.

Tender Ranking 1090006-01

Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 61,987.45
Folklore Contracting 63,224.82
Artisan Reforestation Ltd. 63,720.84
Dynamic Reforestation Ltd. 66,787.20
Summit Reforestation 70,524.00
Evergreen Forest Services 72,926.46
Spectrum Resources 76,889.76
Rhino Reforestation Inc. 76,962.96
Blue Collar Silvictulture Ltd. 77,319.90
Brinkman & Associates 81,150.84
Celtic Reforestation 81,455.22
Coast Range Contracting 82,865.70
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 92,221.20
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 94,854.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 171,627.00

Tender Ranking 1090006-02
Total Contract Bid

Apex Reforestation Ltd. 148,982.93
Summit Reforestation 162,788.80
Folklore Contracting 164,514.26
Brinkman & Associates 166,044.58
Artisan Reforestation 175,327.72
Dynamic Reforestation 182,411.45
Spectrum Resources 186,348.67
Coast Range 186,914.17
Evergreen Forest 195,921.93
Blue Collar Silvictulture 196,137.20
Celtic Reforestation 196,974.45
Dewan Enterprises Ltd. 236,043.70
Seneca Enterprises Ltd 300,363.78
Khaira Enterprises Ltd. 374,428.40
I planted both of these contract and we were getting between 14-17 cents for Wilintonish Walls and 10,5-12 for beach pine flat.

It was actually a good contract

Dont forget one thing: those contract were made up to close the Abitibi's book. So, no checkers at all... I think i've seen a black bear but it wasnt cheking trees...

wow, that's amazing spacew00z
you can plant in the future

Are you sure you didn't hit a HEATWAVE

wow, unless that' an old bid I swore this thread said 2010 bids
Have fun getting 14-17 cents on an 18 cent bid there HEATWAVE