2013 Public Bid Results

[tangocharlie]

Public bid results reveal that nearly every contractor from A to Z owns at least one misjudged bid. The difference with evergreen is that rather than just getting on with it we instead have to listen to another long winded PR smoke screen.

[clay]

not a lot of places where you will get $.23 - $.30 on the island. you can slag evergreen for leaving money on the table, but the fact of the matter is $.17 - .23 is what the island goes for these days. Leader wasted time even preparing a bid at the prices they submitted, and if you think they are not out there bidding low when they have to then you are mistaken.

Yes. 17 cents is what the island goes for these days. that was never in question. but it sucks, we all know it, and wish it weren't true. or choose not to work there. i didn't "slag" evergreen for leaving money on the table so much as for claiming that the other two bids on the job were just joke bids.

buuuuuuuuut... have another sip o' the ol' kool-aid and keep pretending that higher bids are a waste of time i guess....

[Evergreen]

not a lot of places where you will get $.23 - $.30 on the island. you can slag evergreen for leaving money on the table, but the fact of the matter is $.17 - .23 is what the island goes for these days. Leader wasted time even preparing a bid at the prices they submitted, and if you think they are not out there bidding low when they have to then you are mistaken.

Yes. 17 cents is what the island goes for these days. that was never in question. but it sucks, we all know it, and wish it weren't true. or choose not to work there. i didn't "slag" evergreen for leaving money on the table so much as for claiming that the other two bids on the job were just joke bids.

buuuuuuuuut... have another sip o' the ol' kool-aid and keep pretending that higher bids are a waste of time i guess....

Thanks for the well-considered feedback Clay. You did however misquote me. I didn't say anything like the other two bids were a joke. I said that the contractors who put them in, didn't really want the work. If they had Leader would have actually viewed the blocks. In fall 2011 Fieldstone wanted this job, so they viewed it and put in a bid that got it for them. There were only two bidders;

$330,420 - Fieldstone
$392,570 - Evergreen (we are 18.8% higher)

From all reports Fieldstone's crew was happy. I think the shoe was on the other foot for this spring's bid. We needed this work as we'd bid high throughout the bidding season for spring 2013 coast work and had been largely unsuccessful. Our competitors had decided that prices did not need to rise and so they didn't. Western, Island Timberlands and TimberWest were able to secure prices from their contractors that were in our opinion below what they should have gone for.

So in a way you're right, sometimes higher bids are a waste of time. They can constitute to a lot of wasted time, effort and money and it's extremely rare that a failed job will ever trickle up to the higher bidders.

We had a couple of coast contractors meetings over the past two years. The general tone was that prices needed to rise, since the volume of trees being planted was on the rise. It was also recognized that wages needed to go up as they had being going the wrong way for quite a few years. Immediately after the meeting, several of the contractors there put in the same old low bids. It's disappointing but contractors in general aren't willing to raise their prices across the board. That may come back to bite us all very soon.

I got a lot of negative feedback from my recent posts on here -and even a little positive stuff - thanks! In answer to some of it, Rainman - yes our crew's wages have risen substantially over the last few years (25%) for an 8 hour day. Tangocharlie - the only part of that bid that was misjudged was the profit margin.

I've enjoyed Replant for the last few years. There have been lots of interesting posts and some especially funny ones - the Hamsterizer being my favorite. I've been happy to share some perspective from the contractor's side of the equation. I planted my first trees in 1975 and it's been largely my life ever since. However I think I'm doing my partners a disservice (I have 4 equal partners) by being too high profile on Replant. You'll note that no other contractors post anything under their real names. I've also probably shared too much information. Best of luck to you all for a safe, fun and productive 2013 season!

[backcountrysister]

Evergreen! nice job! its always a pleasure to read your posts - honest & straight forward! I loved working for you guys back in the 90's & into the mid 00's. Being transparent is a beautiful thing! I know how & why you do what you do! You have been a great mentor & example of treatment of your employees. Thanx I still have only great things to say about you , Scott, Norm! I hope to carry on the old school flag with my planters. Its better to be true to your people than to be full of it!

$392,570 - Evergreen (we are 18.8% higher)

We had a couple of coast contractors meetings over the past two years. The general tone was that prices needed to rise, since the volume of trees being planted was on the rise. It was also recognized that wages needed to go up as they had being going the wrong way for quite a few years. Immediately after the meeting, several of the contractors there put in the same old low bids. It's disappointing but contractors in general aren't willing to raise their prices across the board. That may come back to bite us all very soon.



I've enjoyed Replant for the last few years. There have been lots of interesting posts and some especially funny ones - the Hamsterizer being my favorite. I've been happy to share some perspective from the contractor's side of the equation. I planted my first trees in 1975 and it's been largely my life ever since. However I think I'm doing my partners a disservice (I have 4 equal partners) by being too high profile on Replant. You'll note that no other contractors post anything under their real names. I've also probably shared too much information. Best of luck to you all for a safe, fun and productive 2013 season!

[The_Bearslayer]

By all accounts Evergreen is usually a waste of time on the coast and usually quite good in the interior. Companies that focus on the coast -- Sitka, Timberline, Bivouac, etc -- tend to do a better job generating income for their employees for some reason.

[backcountrysister]

By all accounts - man I didn't know you did a whole individual census of what planters think of EVERGREEN! Waste of time. have you worked for them? I started my career with them & they always had a core group of high baller returning planters. I have had my best career days of working for them making 450 - 600 a day on the coast & that was not that long ago. That being said. I think the next time you speak- find out some facts before you make such grandiose statements like " by all accounts!" the industry should be thanking these guys since they where the ones who pioneered current planting! the first company to start was Grandy & then Evergreen - which was a co-op of planters who shared profits equally & wanted basic worker rights. Im sure this is where everyone is gonna start spouting off crap about me & evergreen. It is my opinion & I dont work for them anymore - I am however grateful for what they gave me! The job is hard enough that we should be a group that encourages each other & not discourages! also your opinion should be on evergreen post not the public bid ! ok...begin bitching me out ...

By all accounts Evergreen is usually a waste of time on the coast and usually quite good in the interior. Companies that focus on the coast -- Sitka, Timberline, Bivouac, etc -- tend to do a better job generating income for their employees for some reason.

[retrovertigo]

By all accounts Evergreen is usually a waste of time on the coast and usually quite good in the interior.

Having worked for them off and on over the last five years on the coast, I think, as usual. it depends on the contract and which owner/supervisor is running things. Haven't had any negative experiences, mostly good and one great contract when it comes to money. The good contracts I averaged approx. $310/day, the great was closer to $375. I think I'm generally right in the middle of the pack so those numbers should roughly mirror the crew avg. I have heard not so great reports from people who have worked one of the other supervisors, but it's second hand so I won't name names.

Also, and this is just me, money is not everything. I've consistently had fantastic accomodations with Evergreen (often for ridiculously low cost - $5/$10/day), been treated with a ton of respect, had my concerns/complaints addressed immediately, and (mostly) liked all the other people I've worked with.

Regardless of personally having worked for them, I'm sad to see them get shit on so heavily in this thread. They are one of the only contractors posting detailed inside information around here, at least under their own name, and it seems like we could all benefit from encouraging that sort of thing. Just my .02.

[Nate]

I've never worked with Evergreen directly, but I've never heard anything about them that warrants shitting on. Posting as a contractor on these forums is also very rare, and it opens them up to more direct criticism.

[mwainwright]

public bids will invite public commentary. i must say though, there are a hell of alot of worse things happening in our industry than whatever real or imagined transgressions evergreen and its fifteen owners have committed. in my mind osprey and coast range were mostly responsible for lowering van. isl. prices to what they are now. once that bar has been lowered, im not sure anyone really knows how to raise it back up, because there will always be another BD, Khaira, Brian Adam's, etc, willing to do it on the cheap.

[salbrecher]

in my mind osprey and coast range were mostly responsible for lowering van. isl. prices to what they are now. once that bar has been lowered, im not sure anyone really knows how to raise it back up, because there will always be another BD, Khaira, Brian Adam's, etc, willing to do it on the cheap.

I'd say the economic downturn and the long term decline in harvest on the coast in general has more to do with the lowering price. The way to raise it back up would be to increase the harvest. Obviously the lower prices are a reflection of the market but to blame it strictly on the companies bidding is misguided.

[clay]

god these posts get misinterpreted a lot!! for the record... the point wasn't ever "slagging" or "shitting on" evergreen and their track record. like wainwright says, i wouldn't blame them specifically for the price slide vancouver island has seen. the point was that one of the evergreen owners recently "won" a bid on south van isle and explained away the $70,000 left on the table by claiming that the other two companies that bid on the job did not really want the work. not only was that not true, but it seemed like kind of a ridiculous thing to say considering that those other two bids were really tight and evergreens was far lower... that was all i was trying to draw attention to.

if you've planted for a while, chances are you've worked for evergreen. and chances are you liked the crew, the price of the accommodations and maybe even the management. chances are the prices were neither horrible nor all that great. doesn't matter... none of that was what my criticism was directed at.

[Pandion]

The only way for prices to go up is for the lowest bids to be higher. With the volume of trees going up on the coast this year, there was an opportunity for that to happen, but sadly contractor greed blew that opportunity big time.
I think it's great for a contractor to post on these forums under their own name and wish more would do so, thanks Evergreen you have posted a good deal of valuable info. However, as someone who is approaching 2 decades in the industry I find it troubling to see so much money repeatedly left on the table. There are way too few good contracts out there so when there is a chance for another one to pop up, it's a shame when it doesn't come to fruition.
.17-.23 is far from terrible on the island these days but it could have been so much better. You invited criticism with your rather ignorant comment about the high bidders not really wanting the contract. I think the biggest problem with prices on the island is that there are too many locals willing to work for wretched prices just to go home every night. As long as there are capable workers willing to work for these low prices, contractors have no reason to raise their bids, as was proven by this bidding season.
I would venture to guess that planter wages have dropped around 25% on the island over the last decade while the cost of living has continued it's steady ascent (easily 10%). I don't know how those island planters can make it work to be honest. Good luck over there you poor bastards.

[The_Bearslayer]

By all accounts - man I didn't know you did a whole individual census of what planters think of EVERGREEN! Waste of time. have you worked for them? I started my career with them & they always had a core group of high baller returning planters. I have had my best career days of working for them making 450 - 600 a day on the coast & that was not that long ago. That being said. I think the next time you speak- find out some facts before you make such grandiose statements like " by all accounts!" the industry should be thanking these guys since they where the ones who pioneered current planting! the first company to start was Grandy & then Evergreen - which was a co-op of planters who shared profits equally & wanted basic worker rights. Im sure this is where everyone is gonna start spouting off crap about me & evergreen. It is my opinion & I dont work for them anymore - I am however grateful for what they gave me! The job is hard enough that we should be a group that encourages each other & not discourages! also your opinion should be on evergreen post not the public bid ! ok...begin bitching me out ...

By all accounts Evergreen is usually a waste of time on the coast and usually quite good in the interior. Companies that focus on the coast -- Sitka, Timberline, Bivouac, etc -- tend to do a better job generating income for their employees for some reason.

I haven't worked for them, and probably wouldn't work for them on the coast although I would in the interior. My opinion is based on conversations I've had with Evergreen planters all over the island who have been planting in the same towns as the crews I've been on, mainly in Port Alberni and a couple of times in Sayward and elsewhere. The always had among the worst prices in town, although the difference wasn't usually dramatic, and they always had pretty flaky crews with more inexperienced kids than you'd usually see on the coast. Their accommodations were no different than anyone else's, and if they were cheaper, that difference was more than eaten up by their lower wages. That's all I know, Evergreen might have great contracts on the coast I don't know about. If you would rather have encouragement than information, call your mother..

[Scooter]

With the volume of trees going up on the coast this year,

Is this correct? I know that volumes in the province overall are up, but I thought it was that the Interior was up a decent amount and the coast was essentially stagnant, or maybe just a very, very tiny increase, like a couple percentage points at most. I don't remember where I saw that though, so I may be incorrect in thinking this.

[retrovertigo]

Yeah fair enough sorry, using the term 'shitting on' was probably too strong (it was late Sunday night when I wrote that). I was mostly just trying to address the idea that working for them is 'a waste of time' on the coast because I don't think it is. FWIW Bearslayer your description of the flaky, inexperienced crew you ran into in Port Alberni lines up with the one sub-par crew I'd heard reports of, pretty sure that's the same one.

[clay]

it's all good... i just didn't want this thread to continue devolving into a conversation about how good or how bad evergreen is!!

the main points that stick out to me from these recent posts are that high bids are just a reflection of contractors throwing a flier in and looking to get lucky with higher priced work, and that the prices on van isle are more or less garbage...

contractors often talk about how the bidding has to get higher and the prices have to go up, but when it comes to 'filling up' their season, they often go after jobs aggressively and end up bidding lower than they should or even really want to...

seems to me that one of the easiest ways to increase the value of some of these jobs would be for contractors to just drop "winning" bids when there is too much money left on the table.

take the job that is being discussed currently... if evergreen drops that bid, then the work is suddenly worth $70,000 more. BCTS doesn't bat an eye because the other two higher bids were much more closely grouped than the "winning" one. there's been several bcts bids (and surely several more that aren't public info) this year and every year where a significant amount of money is left on the table. a lot of them are not dropped because the job fits nicely into the contractor's season, keeps their planters continuously working etc., etc.

but... planters would rather piece together a season with multiple contractors if they have to... it's not like we do this work for the job security! seeing bids increase and prices go up would make us way more happy in the long term.

it should be about increasing the value of the work being done... and not giving licensees too good a deal just 'cause it really ties a contractor's season together.

[Pandion]

Quote:
With the volume of trees going up on the coast this year,


Is this correct? I know that volumes in the province overall are up, but I thought it was that the Interior was up a decent amount and the coast was essentially stagnant, or maybe just a very, very tiny increase, like a couple percentage points at most. I don't remember where I saw that though, so I may be incorrect in thinking this.

From 17 to 20 million, not a huge increase but one would have hoped it could make a difference.
http://foresterblog.blogspot.ca/2012/09 ... t-260.html

[trip]

Nothing will make a difference until the greedy pricks who sell our sweat for cheap shape up :P

If ever there were a time that organizing made sense for treeplanters it is now on the coast; for the first decade that I planted I made most of my money on the coast, but now I would avoid it altogether if I only could.

Prices on the coast should NEVER be comparable to those in the interior since the conditions are so much more arduous. All the crap contractors spout about the juicy flat second growth BLAH BLAH BLAH is a pile of shit. The reality is the conditions are harsh; the weather alone should raise the wage 20%, and when you throw in the fact that blocks are on the whole much steeper, generally larger stock size, the bigger and more pervasive slash (yes, even second growth slash tends to be bigger than anything in much of the interior), well it just doesnt make sense that I am being paid more to plant those little 310 and 410 trees on the flat sandy interior than the 415Ds on the 12% grade with a tea bag or two for good measure.

Shame on all the contractors that are responsible for the massive decline in wages for coastal treeplanters in the last 6-7 years. If the world were a fair place, you would have nobody willing to work for you at all by this point.

[bush]

i agree.^^

[Mike]

Is there a public bid for something South West of Williams Lake with the Ministry of Environment on a free to grow stand that was burned? Are Ministry of Environment contracts usually public information?

[mcD]

I believe the answers to your questions are no and yes. unless it is being tendered to a list of prequalified contractors

[Scooter]

Hey Mike, what makes you wonder that the MOE would be involved?

I remember looking at quite a few different contracts southwest of WL last fall. Maybe four in total, if I remember correctly? A couple of them had quite a bit of burned ground. I don't remember a lot that would qualify at FTG though. The FTG burns that I saw were mostly southwest of Quesnel, southwest of Vanderhoof, or southeast of Fraser Lake (close to the Vanderhoof blocks).

I'm actually working southwest of WL now, on the 2000 road. Is the area that you're referring to nearby? Or further west, down under Alexis Creek maybe?

I heard that you ran into a few of my planters in town today....

[Mike]

Yeah, quite a few of them.

I was told it was Free to Grow and Ministry of Environment responsibility. It's all along the 1000 road, closer to 70 Mile. And the burned stand is definitely in the 7-10 year range.

[Scooter]

I thought that FTG wasn't achieved until year 14. Although maybe if your stand has the required height and density you can pass it as FTG before the 14th year? I don't know. Here's a link to FTG stuff in one region, although I'm way too busy to even skim that right now.

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsregs/ ... -print.pdf

[mcD]

are you confusing FTG with FFT ?

[Scooter]

Nope. FTG is Free-To-Grow status, once a block has reached the point where the government determines that "it will grow" and at that point, the obligation for the block transfers from the licensee to the Crown.

FFT is a government-funded program that puts dollars into forestry for projects that aren't covered under regular post-harvest obligations, such as pine beetle kill or forest fires on Crown tenure.

I've planted on several FFT contracts that were moderately decent. I've also planted on one that was a total horror-show.

[Mike]

I met the checker for that FFT story, he had some funny things to say about you :p

1100 road, actually. And maybe it is FFT? Is there a FFT Williams Lake Southwest bid sheet somewhere with Dynamic on it? I'd enjoy seeing it, if there is. Also, is BCTS Houston out there somewhere yet? Nobody has posted it

[Scooter]

I'd be surprised if that "checker" even knew who I was. I only worked there for four days, and another Folklore camp did most of that contract.

If it was the foresters that worked at the consulting company, I believe that I only met them twice, once for a prework and once again at the end when we had a gong show with about 11 management people going around checking trees in a group. Most of the checking was done by forestry students, who were checking things very differently than what the consultants had specified in the prework.

If you heard any good stories, they were probably about Jim Logan. I'm sure he probably had lots of colourful conversations with them.

[Mike]

" I believe that I only met them twice, once for a prework and once again at the end when we had a gong show with about 11 management people going around checking trees in a group."

Probably one of those guys.

[Rage]

When a block can be declared free to grow is determined by the forest stewardship plan for the specific area. Some have a early free to date where a cutblock can not be declared before then. However all cutblocks will have a free to grow late date by which time the cutblock must reach free to grow status.
To be free growing the trees must meet the minimum height, the minimum height to brush ratio, and the minimum density.

If a fire were to go through a stand post free growing it would be up to the crown to reforest. Which would probably be under FFT funding.

[mwainwright]

here is something being overlooked by this thread: the average bid prices for BCTS brushing and weeding jobs have risen dramatically this year, while the pool of bidders seems to have narrowed considerably. work that has been bid at ~$400/ha in the past is now going for ~$800-$1000/ha. the one exception being coast range bidding work in quesnel at about $500/ha. no surprise there i suppose.

[kootenaywrx]

here is something being overlooked by this thread: the average bid prices for BCTS brushing and weeding jobs have risen dramatically this year, while the pool of bidders seems to have narrowed considerably. work that has been bid at ~$400/ha in the past is now going for ~$800-$1000/ha. the one exception being coast range bidding work in quesnel at about $500/ha. no surprise there i suppose.

What brushing/weeding jobs have gone for more?

800-1000/ha is the going bid these days,I think for a few reasons such as fuel prices, no low ball cutters or not many good cutters/workers, hotels.

koot.

[mwainwright]

well, we've been bidding brushing jobs at around $1000/ha for quite a few years now, only the last 3 years or so i have watched the vast majority of them go for around half that price. if you've been able to maintain those bid prices in recent years, all i can think is that i guess you dont have to compete with Mihis.

[kootenaywrx]

well, we've been bidding brushing jobs at around $1000/ha for quite a few years now, only the last 3 years or so i have watched the vast majority of them go for around half that price. if you've been able to maintain those bid prices in recent years, all i can think is that i guess you dont have to compete with Mihis.

well the truth is we dont bother to bid anymore in the pg quesnel area as there are some companys that can cut it for less than picking emptys out of the ditchs.

going to drop off a tender at nelson mof tomorrow, I think there will be lots of contractors bidding.

Roll the dice.

[Rainman]

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/TSG/extern ... 202013.pdf

"The proposed contract is to plant 11 different sites consisting of approximately 203.2 ha with approximately 266,860 seedlings."

1(a) - Primary Plant – Helicopter access (requires seedlings to be flown into cutblock – Contractor responsible for all helicopter costs associated with transporting seedlings and or crew)
Trees - 41,375

1(b) - Primary Plant – 4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Trees - 225,485

2 - Fertilizer application (Black Magic Aqua-Zorb 25-9-9, 10 gram tea bags) – 4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Tea Bags - 79,530

3 - Seedling Protection Installation
(a) Stakes = 4’ x 7/8” x 7/8” angled point, around 90deg angle),
(b) Cones = 3’x8” + 2 Ties
4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Cone/Stake - 10, 452

4 - Miscellaneous work - 5 Days

[Mike]

Let's try to disect the Coast Range bid of 140000 a little more:

1(a) - Primary Plant – Helicopter access (requires seedlings to be flown into cutblock – Contractor responsible for all helicopter costs associated with transporting seedlings and or crew)
Trees - 41,375 --- 10000$ at 25 cents. Depending on camp size and how spread out things are, could be done in two days. 2*10hrs heli at 1800$/hour = 36000$

Total cost: 46000$

1(b) - Primary Plant – 4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Trees - 225,485 --- 45000$ at 20 cents.

2 - Fertilizer application (Black Magic Aqua-Zorb 25-9-9, 10 gram tea bags) – 4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Tea Bags - 79,530 --- 2400$ at 3 cents.

3 - Seedling Protection Installation
(a) Stakes = 4’ x 7/8” x 7/8” angled point, around 90deg angle),
(b) Cones = 3’x8” + 2 Ties
4x4 or Quad Access up to approximately 3 hours drive from Port Alberni
Cone/Stake - 10, 452 --- 10500$ at 1$ per.

Total: 104000
Remainder: 36000
Total without heli costs: 68000
Remainder without heli costs: 72000

That looks like it could optimistically be a "50% to planters, 50% admin" depending on how many of those "up to three hour" drives are actually 3 hours.

[whitepickup]

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/TSG/extern ... 202013.pdf

[mwainwright]

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/tsk/extern ... 202013.pdf

[Evergreen]

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/TSG/extern ... 202013.pdf

Sadly there's a typo on this bid result. 241,730 4X4/Quad access, 116,740 heli access, 42,000 fill plants of which 8,000 are heli, 79,170 t-bags
The real results are as follows;

$216,292 - Bivouac
$241,793 - Evergreen
$244,371 - Fieldstone
$295,052 - Sitka
$295,807 - Rainforest
$298,207 - Zanzibar
$343,166 - Osprey

[mcD]

Did Osprey finally get burned last year? There bids a pretty high on these planting jobs as well as a brushing job in Campbell River.

[mwainwright]

Did Osprey finally get burned last year? There bids a pretty high on these planting jobs as well as a brushing job in Campbell River.

osprey got burned working on haida gwaii this spring. too bad it wasnt enough to put them out of business.

[mwainwright]

also, this is ridiculous.
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/tsg/extern ... 202013.pdf

[mcD]

how about this?

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/tsg/extern ... 202013.pdf

[bush]

W T F ?!!!!

seriously?

who is cutting edge?

p.s fuck you cutting edge and bcfs

[mcD]

Or this

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/tka/extern ... g%2015.pdf

[Tnalp]

Bidding against the "romanians"!! forget about it.