Khaira Enterprises

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:11 pm

Great post BDawg - good points regarding local contractors with smaller organizations. I think the bids on this Powell River job reflected some very hungry small local contractors. They also showed the Brinkmans and Evergreens were hungry too. You're right that those larger companies have more overhead but at a certain point volume overcomes overhead and they can still be very competetive and pay close to what the Rainforests & Stephans do. None of them however can pay the $12/hr that Khaira was paying.

To add further fuel to your fire, here's the results of a bid on another Powell River area contract that opened recently. BD silviculture also has no coastal experience although this job didn't involve heli and boat access. Guess who BCTS was happy to award the work to?

BD Silviculture - $23,248 - 34 cents
Stephan Cont - $26,632 - 39
Impact - $27,344 - 40 cents
Evergreen - $29,039 - 42
Rainforest - $37,136 - 54 cents

And furthermore here's the results on the Campbell River planting and Plantskydd contract which may just have finished;

Osprey - $104,779
BD Silvi - $113,648
Brinkman - $120,750
Evergreen - $127,395
Impact - $129,280
Celtic - $135,188
Timberline - $139,795
Fieldstone - $207,500

Rumor has it that Osprey was paying 13 cents with a 2 cent bonus if you didn't quit. Is it true that planters are still unaware that these kinds of bonus systems are illegal? Anyone who didn't get the bonus can take Osprey to the LRB and they will get it.

Richianity · Post by **Richianity** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:01 pm

Option 1: Plant and make $150/day

Option 2: stay at home and blog about your entitlement.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:17 pm

Coaster wrote:Rumor has it that Osprey was paying 13 cents with a 2 cent bonus if you didn't quit. Is it true that planters are still unaware that these kinds of bonus systems are illegal? Anyone who didn't get the bonus can take Osprey to the LRB and they will get it.

I've heard the same rumor, hopefully every planter takes that opportunity and the 2 cent bonus wasn't if you quit, but if you stayed the whole season, but that's just the gossip mill, but funny i read that on this thread a few days after hearing the same story

Richianity wrote:Ya, kids these days effin things up out there..

Have you ever checked trees, how bout trees planted by experienced planters compared to rookies, how bout checking those trees a few years after they've been planted or surveys to see how much a proper tree excels over that of a poorly planted tree, how bout made recommendations on what to do about all the dead trees, or about all the trees that didn't grow fast enough to make it without chemical intervention because those first two years they were stunted because they were mishandled, improperly planted and then replanted?
I'm gonna go ahead and say no you haven't rich...
Replanting is actually not allowed in most contracts because the trees are already fucked by the time they replant them, huh, why would most treeplanting contracts include this "no replanting" clause, a clause that is ignored by both the client and contractor on almost 100 % of contracts, wonder why?

BECAUSE IT COSTS MONEY IN THE LONG RUN plus contractors are expected to do it right the first time. Part of that includes having a % of experienced workers. I wonder what that % was in this contract?
Evergreen, anybody? Maybe that's the first in a long line of questions about this contract.

ps anything that comes from the BC Liberals and includes silviculture should be disregarded as lies, especially since that shiny page in 2006 projected above 300 million trees to be planted in BC due to the pine beetle

2010 projection = 158 million

NotdaChecker wrote:Only your company OH&S Program can make caulk boots mandatory. WorkSafeBC states:

And drum roll, you are definitely not a checker
Wow, guess that's why clients for the logging companies on the coast do an audit on caulk boots and other safety issues once a week. WCB may not legislate it, but you would be a fool to think that this is only a treeplanting contractor mandate.

SO NO, IT IS NOT YOUR COMPANY, IT IS THE CLIENT YOU ARE WORKING FOR THAT MANDATES IT, SEE: CONTRACT SIGNED BY THE COMPANY AND CLIENT WHICH PROBABLY STATES AS SUCH

TheHamsterizer · Post by **TheHamsterizer** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:37 pm

Duncan wrote:
ps anything that comes from the BC Liberals and includes silviculture should be disregarded as lies, especially since that shiny page in 2006 projected above 300 million trees to be planted in BC due to the pine beetle

But of course your anecdotal evidence is the gospel, and the trees you've checked are representational of the entire province for the last 20 years...

Richianity · Post by **Richianity** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:27 pm

Actually I have checked for the Ministry...

and I believe March 2009 glossy over you.

We haven't heard anything about this contract or a while, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that everything went fine.

b-dawg · Post by **b-dawg** » Sat May 01, 2010 7:59 am

While it is the easy route to continually play the role of the devil's advocate by trying to poke holes in every post, and/or reframe the discussion(s) into your own polarized 'this versus that' scenario; it becomes a tired-out act whose credibility wanes with every post.

While often times valuable, critique of this sort tends to be better received when it is not the sole contribution of any quarter.

Pitting a person's perspective/experience as "anecdotal evidence" against office survey 'stats' is a creation all your own, which was never intended nor found in previous posts. However, seeing this dualistic situation be set-up, and then followed up by a choice of which is more valid is very revealing and quite comical. (Thanks for the laughs).

I know it takes a little more guts to actually go out on a limb and posit something, or support/offer progressive solutions or perspectives on issues---but it usually fosters more dialogue than an environment where people hide in the weeds (to fearful to subject their own positions to critique?) waiting to apply parameters/agendas to other peoples' freely offered perspectives.

Balance can never be overstated: not in planting, not in discussions, not in the roles people assume, not in life.

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Sat May 01, 2010 8:23 am

NotdaChecker wrote: Only your company OH&S Program can make caulk boots mandatory.

This is wrong. The conditions in which caulks must be worn are clearly stated in the regulation (as you provided). Therefore, if the site conditions require them, they are mandatory by regulation, pretty simple. Assessment of site conditions must happen prior to the job beginning, and if the site has enough slash to require walking across logs, then caulks must be used by the workers. There is some subjectivity in there, but it's really not that hard for an inspector or auditor to figure out.

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Sat May 01, 2010 12:14 pm

The Powell River contract had very few requirements as far as who could bid or what kind of crew had to be used. There was nothing about any percentage of experienced planters. I have seen this requirement in other tendered contracts but it's a few and far between thing.

It's not likely that we'll hear anything about how the rest of this contract went - either good or bad. BCTS is not happy that such attention has been focused on how they do things. They are not particularly receptive when it comes to accepting criticism from anyone outside their organization. Just like a lot of the private companies, they are receiving their priorities from the accountants at headquarters and for them the lowest price is the law. This won't change until bottom lines are in positive territory.

On another topic posed in this thread - As far as replanting is concerned, almost all licensees and BCTS will only let you replant as long as you don't disturb the root system of the already planted trees. You can correct too shallow or too deep or you can fill in if density is too low but that's about all that's allowed. It only makes sense as pulling or even gently digging trees out of the ground is going to do more harm than good.

In my experience survival of seedlings is primarily a function of how healthy the trees are when they are planted and how dry it is in the couple of months afterwards. Seedlings can be damaged by being stressed in the nursery and/or in transit. They can be mishandled (rough handling or overheating), they can be poorly stored or kept thawed for too long before planting.

Blaming poor quality planting for low survival is rarely valid. The planting has to be really bad to make the difference. Planting trees in rotten logs (except for Hemlock) or too shallow in dry sites are two scenarios that will make a serious difference, but most other faults don't make any difference at all. I've done a lot of survival surveys and that's what I've seen. On the west cost I've come across trees dropped the previous year who's roots have come out of the plug, gone down into the ground and the top of the tree has turned and is growing straight up. Obviously this is a result of how wet it is there - but it does go to show that if conditions are right, planting quality is not a big factor - after all these trees weren't even planted.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat May 01, 2010 1:33 pm

Forestry is an interesting business. Optimal long-term management strategie$ can frequently be more expensive than optimal short-term decision$. I see a permanent tension between the foresters on the ground and the bean-counters back in the office fairly often. One of the most interesting foresters I've ever worked with was a CPA and held a forestry degree.

I love this website. I like reading people in the business using the word 'technical' to describe planting work. But I would agree with one of Evergreen's last comments ... planting plugs in a near-rainforest has little that is technical about it at the planter level in terms of pure survival. At the logistics level, yes. In terms of growth rates and herbaceous competition, that's not the current forester's problem. His replacement will have to deal with that. I don't like working with older foresters sometimes. They lose interest in regeneration sometimes. "I'll never live to see that block cut anyway."

If you would like a 'technical' challenge, I could use a hand on my current job ... planting ten bare-root species simultaneously (up to 1/2" root collars) on a >60% slope made out of rocks.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Sat May 01, 2010 4:07 pm

its true that trees will basically grow in anything. take ten steps into any forest and and this becomes pretty obvious. if you want a forest to be commercially viable in the future, "technical" aspects such as site selection become paramount. this is where the situation in powell river bothers me. by awarding one of the more challenging jobs on the coast to an inexperienced contractor, because they offered the lowest cost to the client, BCTS shows us that they really dont give a shit if the resource remains viable into the future.

on the upside, someone will get a good year's work out of fixing the mess khaira made this season. we spent years on this job cleaning up bill sinclair's messes from previous years. those blocks were always some of the better money we made.

backcountrysister · Post by **backcountrysister** » Sun May 02, 2010 12:28 pm

Just an FYI ... Khaira enterprises & Dewan are a family project. the 2 companies are owned by brothers who share employees & contracts. I agree with Coaster. Nothing good will come of this. These guys make Osprey look decent.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sun May 02, 2010 8:12 pm

I've always wanted to see those forests and even better to plant in them but that will never happen. At least I have been able to work with a Chamaecyparis species on the east coast a few times, including making micro-site spot calls, very interesting forest sites not suited to simplistic monoculture.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:35 pm

TheHamsterizer wrote:But of course your anecdotal evidence is the gospel, and the trees you've checked are representational of the entire province for the last 20 years...

please make some sense, or is yer anecdotal evidence your gospel, but you could probably say that useless statement about anything that anyone posts on here

but let's look at rich's representational evidence a little more

Richianity wrote:Just remember that seedling survival rates were ~50% when Evergreen made $580/day (in today's $$) in his rookie season!

Yes and Evergreen was probably planting 1400-1800 SPH or higher when he started which still leaves 900 SPH living if 50 % of his tree died which is about a wide assumption about someone as I've seen on here
and to achieve Free To Grow you need around 600-800 SPH
With the improvement in nursery, planting specs, and further study in the industry as a whole it's not a surprise that the densities are down to around 1000 SPH, why pay brushers to thin over stocked plantations which was the result of the improvements, that was a common complaint around PG when I started and probably lead to much much lower densities, but there is now a much smaller room for error

Richianity wrote:Actually I have checked for the Ministry...

and I believe March 2009 glossy over you.

LMAO, well if you did that's not gonna help any of your arguments judging by many of your post on here

Richianity wrote:We haven't heard anything about this contract or a while, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that everything went fine.

Have you heard anything about any contract that went bad from anyone other than planters, probably not, nor will you, in fact I've never heard much about any of the nightmare contracts over the years, unless someone posted it on here, but I'm pretty sure more than a few have ended up in courtrooms before
Either way, many people in the industry shouldn't just let it be, next time something like this comes up the Ministry should be forced to take a company that is Safe Certified if they have over 20 employees or whatever it is, simple as that, and coastal contracts should have some sort of exp. requirement, just my opinion

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Tue May 04, 2010 11:53 am

In the "Old" days we planted to 1600-1800 per hectare. 600-700 an acre. We planted bare roots that were some times so small you could barely fumble out one at a time. On other occasions on the coast they were so big and laden with mud in their roots that we used to flail them across our caulks to get the weight down. If there were tarps around they were plastic - silvicools were unknown let alone inserts for planting bags. No one seemed to have any idea about keeping the trees cool. We planted mono species everywhere and the words microsite selection hadn't been invented. Checkers would walk through the block and be happy that there were trees everywhere straight up and tight. That was about it for quality control. No wonder survival was so poor back then. That's not even considering the lack of knowledge and science in growing the trees. I can't remember any consideration being given to keeping seedlings within elevation ranges or seed zones.

Post by **Scooter** » Fri May 07, 2010 9:34 pm

I've actually had great relationships with the BCTS offices and staff that I've worked with in the past several years, ie. Vanderhoof and Kamloops.

However, having clarified that, I think that the very best thing about this thread is that it will have brought a potentially bad situation to public light. And if that annoyed or frustrated the people in charge in the area, so be it. One of two things will have happened. Either:

A) Investigations will have revealed that the company in question was able to do an adequate job in the end; or

B) Investigations will have revealed that certain people dropped the ball in the management of this contract, and procedures need to be put into place to reduce liability and problems in the future.

In either case, the industry probably wins.
(Assuming that an "adequate" job is all we strive for, when I would suggest that industry participants should try to do better than just adequate).

I'm certainly looking forward to hearing more gossip in the months ahead about how things ended up for the planters on this job.

Knowledge is power.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sun May 09, 2010 1:33 pm

Dogmusher wrote:Oh !!!hamsterizzzer!!! , I love reading you , it's so sweet. I wonder what I would do if you weren't there to be so funny !

Maybe you should try getting out a bit more, or other websites:
http://www.plentyoffish.com/

Nasitra · Post by **Nasitra** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:42 pm

It looks like the meltdown ended up occuring in Kamloops and Williams Lake.

N.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sun May 16, 2010 3:40 pm

What happened in Kamloops and Williams lake?

Post by **Scooter** » Sun May 16, 2010 5:07 pm

And didn't they have a contract with MOF PG too? If there were problems down south, were there problems in PG?

I shouldn't fan the fire here, I suppose, but ... the word Kamloops always catches my attention after having worked there for the last several years.

mcD · Post by **mcD** » Wed May 19, 2010 5:43 am

There is a crew in Merritt right now as well, although I can't tell exactly which of those companies it is right now. does anyone else know?

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:54 pm

mcD wrote:There is a crew in Merritt right now as well, although I can't tell exactly which of those companies it is right now. does anyone else know?

AKD, AKA Dewan :)

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:52 am

Apparently something good may have come of the Powell River contract. Rumors are pretty strong that Khaira has been dropping contracts left and right in the interior. Apparently the BC Safety Council is auditing them and considering stronger action on Khaira's misrepresentation of themselves as a small company. They must be bleeding money in a big way. Here's hoping their planters get paid before they disappear into the night. I wonder if we'll ever know if their African crew got paid their wages?

The_Bearslayer · Post by **The_Bearslayer** » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:16 pm

I ran into the Khaira crew at the Greyhound in Golden a few days ago. They were bailing, or going on strike, or something -- in any case they were leaving and their contract was being shut down. They told me cheques had bounced, they had been underfed and often had lacked safe drinking water and sewage systems, that there had been two fatalities during the season (I don't know if they were talking about actual crew members or what), and that Social Services was now involved, whatever that means. A guy in an MOF truck came and dropped off a bunch of their stuff as they were about to board the bus.

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:39 pm

Did BCTS really think this kind of BS wasn't going to happen?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1008 ... nter_abuse

TheHamsterizer · Post by **TheHamsterizer** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:47 am

Screefhead wrote:Did BCTS really think this kind of BS wasn't going to happen?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1008 ... nter_abuse

man, it really was a meltdown. I stand sort of corrected.

barnbill · Post by **barnbill** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:33 am

CBC has picked up this story, in regards to the Golden contract being shut down.
if some of you would like a smile or three check out the comments on the story @
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columb ... clair.html

some of the people posting comments are as uninformed as those workers seem to have been

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:49 am

I'm sure the CBC story has it elements it of truth. But , it pretty much just come across as the typical CBC one sided - politically correct drivel. Instead of doing a well researched story showing the big picture we get a bunch of unsubstantiated sensationalism masquerading as news.

Once again BCTS is escaping all blame for their latest fiasco.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:36 pm

http://www.vancouversun.com/immigrant+w ... story.html

Check out this Vancouver Sun story. Not in depth well researched journalism either but interesting. They say that BCTS is going to suspend Khaira from working in Golden for a year. Talk about an anemic response! Perhaps if they'd killed someone they might have been suspended for 2 years. I suppose CBC might get more interested if they knew what had gone on in Powell River - that BCTS new well in advance that these guys were sub standard and taking advantage of people.

The real problem here is BCTS as they have little social conscience and no sense of responsibility about workers wages or conditions - I'd say safety too but they'd howl and as always claim that as their first priority - blatant B.S.

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:19 pm

Coaster wrote: The real problem here is BCTS as they have little social conscience and no sense of responsibility about workers wages or conditions - I'd say safety too but they'd howl and as always claim that as their first priority - blatant B.S.

mcD · Post by **mcD** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:13 pm

Jordan, through the Silviculture workers or your WSCA contacts would it be possible to contact the CBC and give them information about some of Khairas previous history or the BCTS angle?

backcountrysister · Post by **backcountrysister** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:37 pm

http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Tree+ ... l#comments

another story ...I have quite alot of inside info concerning this company, Dewan & Microsite ...they all contract share and have all the same problems...

mcD · Post by **mcD** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:50 pm

anything else? spill the details

joe-eco · Post by **joe-eco** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:40 pm

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/were+ ... story.html

Nasitra · Post by **Nasitra** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:37 pm

Made the cover of the Vancouver Sun...

N.

vexar69 · Post by **vexar69** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:55 pm

I Agree with McD's suggestion/inquiry! What about trying to find out who awarded this contract as well and see if reference checks were made etc... I tried to find the bid list on BCTS web site to see how low they were but did not succeed, I wonder if anyone else can find it? Usually when I post comments I try to stay polite and diplomatic but this situation is TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT!!!! Anyway let's keep talking It's close to the least we can do.

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:08 pm

Nothing will come of this, same as last year for Batlang. BCTS will remain quiet and put all the blame on Khaira. Khaira's owners will slink away, none of the planters will do anything to recover their money and soon enough everything will be forgotten.

If there ever was a time for the WSCS to step in and do something its now, Maybe they'll do something - but I doubt it.

vexar69 · Post by **vexar69** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:42 pm

I unfortunately agree to a large extent with Screefhead,,,,In any case I just sent an email to Kim Bolan from the Vancouver Sun suggesting that she looks into the Powell River Meltdown as a backstory, perhaps it will shine even more disrepute on these Bastard!!!! I do tend to see the Batlang/ Khaira scenarios as comparing apples and oranges,( to a certain extent ) By the sounds of it Brian fucked up without intending or planning to screw people over whereas Khaira knew exactly what they were doing when they mistreated workers... Anyway as a worker and an owner of a BC SAFE company this has riled me up big time.

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:41 pm

I understand now that the BC Federation of Labour (BCFL) is well aware of the previous issues on the Sunshine Coast. I expect someone as resourceful as Kim Bolan is aware of the background as well. All they have to do is visit this forum.

Khaira is not a member of the WSCA. However, I am sure that the WSCA will be lobbying the relevant parties (Safety Council, WorkSafeBC, BCTS..) to take action. I feel that having the BCFL involved is also very good, as they will press the issue and work on behalf of the workers. They will also guide the workers through the proper channels to pursue greivances.

I think we should applaud the workers that are speaking out here. Too often workers remain silent about mistreatment, or fail to lodge a complaint. Historically this has been a real probelm with new immigrant workers. If you are new to the country and desperate for a job, it takes a lot of guts to speak out against your employer.

backcountrysister · Post by **backcountrysister** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:11 am

Un freaking believable...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columb ... clair.html#

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:49 pm

Word is that Global TV will have more on this tonight on the news.

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:00 pm

I sent an email to Kim also. It may be a bit blunt but that's how I feel.

Hi Kim,

Khaira Enterprises has been flying under the radar of legality for the longest time. They break just about every rule in the book and have been getting away with it . As a silvicultural contractor, I have had to compete against businesses such as Khaira and have witnessed firsthand their shoddy practices.

The most frustrating element in all of this is that it would have once again gone unnoticed and ignored by Ministry of Forest , WCB and Labour Board officials, who continuously turn a blind eye in fear of racist based retribution. No government official wants to be involved in such a controversy and Khalid Bajwa is taking full advantage of it. The only reason this has been brought to light is because the RCMP conducted an investigation on a brawl and drunkenness event.

Khaira Enterprises did not become non compliant just this year: they have been awful since their inception. This time they just got caught.

Feel free to get in touch with me anytime. I can provide you with quite a few stories about Khaira and how government officials have been ignoring their non compliance.

Cheers,

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:19 am

This has got to be the biggest black eye for all of us in quite a while. The public's perception of treeplanting is taking a beating. We'll slide down another few notches in the estimation of the rest of the forest industry. One of the questions is why did all of the goverment agencies involved cut Khaira so much slack? Infractions in both health and safety were identified in Powell River. The BC Forest Safety Council knew that Khaira were falsely registered as a small company but let them keep operating.

The spin doctors within these organizations will be in full damage control trying to dodge responsibility for aiding and abetting the shoddy and downright illegal practices exhibited in this case. Backcountry Sister alleges connections between Khaira and Dewan. Will this be investigated? Probably not as it will all be swept under the rug as quickly as possible. BCTS says they'll disqualify Khaira from bidding in Golden for a year - a pathetic and insufficient response to say the least.

backcountrysister · Post by **backcountrysister** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:32 am

Last Year I was hired as a foreman for Microsite & found out later that it was all subcontract work under Dewan - who had work sharing with Khaira. I was left on blocks where I was the only 1st aider for up to 50 people & little communication to all of the blocks. Several issues involving payment, WCB & forest practice codes being broken... It was the worst experience of my life & now I dont work in the industry because of it. I still am mortified by the treatment these people received - Congolese, Indo & any ill informed people. The best part, I informed Govt agency's, John Betts & Anyone who could help or just listen...The Labor board is here to meet "minimum standard" of workers rights. So Ever if they award you moneys it could be only minimum wage. The only real govt body that was helpful was the Federal govt.

Anyway, These guys suck, I never got paid for 4.5 months of 20 hr days ( actually, I took 3 advances) but all the same, Im still owed several thousand dollars that I will never see.

Gabe · Post by **Gabe** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:42 am

the same story was reprinted in the toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/arti ... no-toilets

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:33 pm

khaira and dewan do not allegedly share work. they are basically two arms of the same outfit. i believe the principals of these companies are even part of the same extended family. i suspect the people behind this debacle will simply continue to operate under another name, and the ministry will continue to turn a blind eye in order to keep bids low. i dont mean to be crass here, but wake the fuck up people. we need a union. simple as that. this shit is going to continue to happen on a regular basis. the only lessons learned from all this will be how not to get caught doing it. and you all know it.

vexar69 · Post by **vexar69** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:31 pm

good to hear from contractors... There is a higher likelihood of this debacle disappearing than an union being formed!! Still, sometimes it is nice to state the obvious. I am the first to admit that I usually look out for myself first but wonder if it is time to start looking forward and try to change certain realities? Anyway Does anyone have any ideas about what kind of organization or structure could benefit the workers; Mike mentioned a union do you have any baseline suggestions as to possible first steps? What about a web site with these issues as a general theme? Throwing ideas out there.

backcountrysister · Post by **backcountrysister** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:45 am

http://www.cupw.ca/4/8/3/0/index1.shtml

a "how to organize a union through Canadian Union of Postal workers"
one example...

what is shocking is that anybody can start a union & I have one example :
Red mountain has the only union for the lifties in all of canada who is represented by the steel workers union.
Im just sayin'...

another example:
http://www.teamsters987.com/join-QandA

bush · Post by **bush** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:14 am

i've been in forestry for twenty years now. every aspect. great season planting 2010 plus other work. i'm super cynical of the forest industry. but, forestry is a huge part of b.c. and my life. i would be alright to let the whole industry burn. like a forest fire. a nice intense burn right down to mineral soil. burn off all the shit. and even if some stuff of value burns as well. oh well. and we can watch and see what rises from the ashes.

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:56 am

Okay, time for a long-winded rant. It's been a while. My ranting muscles are a little out of shape, but I'll do my best. Okay. I can definitely sense the frustration that people are feeling over the perceived lack of action in response to what people believe to be blatant violations (vilations anywhere, not necessarily here in this situation) As a person who has committed a large part of my career to encouraging better practices, I totally share this frustration. Of course, I make that statement without reference to any specific company or person, as we have yet to hear judgment or decision from some of the key agencies involved.

I think the main reason for the frustration boils down to the principles of administrative fairness (AF). AF is the fundamental guiding principle of our governmental and regulatory systems. It basically encompasses fairness, objectivity, and due process. This means that there must be an unbiased examination of every perceived violation, and an avenue of appeal for the accused (who is innocent until proven otherwise). AF prevents the regulatory bodies from running roughshod over the good operators. The ultimate challenge is to build a regulatory system that effectively detects and punishes the slimy cheats, without compromising the rights of the conscientious majority. Of course, the cheats always seek to use the processes and rules of AF to their advantage to weasel through the loopholes. Our regulatory systems are designed on the premise that it is better to allow the possibility of a few cheats getting through than a few innocent parties getting stomped on. At least this is the idea behind it. The system has many flaws, and we are always trying to find ways to improve it.

So, its very interesting to see contractors and workers on the same page to some extent on the subject of unscrupulous operators. I make that observation with no reference to any particular company, as we cannot assume anything until judgment is passed. However…. Both contractors and workers realize that each can gain from upholding the laws and regulations that apply to safety and treatment and payment of the workers. There is huge common ground here. Nobody really wants to have the market conditions dragged down any farther except maybe some of the licensees. However, contractors and workers prefer a robust market where fair prices are obtained for jobs and workers are rewarded sufficiently that they remain productive and happy in their role. Unfortunately, a few parties may feel that they can gain a competitive advantage by bidding far below market level, and make up the ground by cutting corners on laws and regulations. I have probably seen more of the silviculture industry than anyone, and I tend to believe that the majority of contractors are honest, and seek to remain compliant with the regs and laws. Some of them stray outside the lines on an occasional basis as a matter of circumstance, but most seek to run a straight ship. However, the very small number that knowingly and intentionally seek to circumvent the rules do immense damage to the industry. Dragging down the market by cutting legal corners puts increased pressure on other operators, and undermines the legitimacy of the rules. It generates frustration when the rules aren’t upheld to the expectations of the compliant parties, and creates anger and resentment in the workers. Such behavior is purely predatory, short-sighted, immoral, and illegal. The challenge is detection, encouraging enforcement, and ensuring punishment. These are three different challenges.

As a long-time member of the industry, I tend to believe now that a conventional union is not viable (or perhaps simply improbable) in silviculture. I would whole-heartedly support one if it were to emerge. However, the collective will and structural features of the industry are against it. Sooooo, everyone is asking what can we do to prevent really really bad behaviour in our industry?… You know, the kind of behaviours and practices that offend you on a moral level and piss you off as a hardworking and compliant worker or contractor. What can WE the members of the industry do?

I always suggest looking first at the tools that you have before looking to develop something new. Sometimes, the last thing a bureaucratic system needs is another layer of bureaucracy. It is far preferable to learn how to use the agencies and networks that exist in a more effective manner, and learn how to bring existing forces or agencies into the equation. As mentioned, there are three points at which you can focus your attack in this regard: detection, enforcement, and punishment. The techniques that can be used include network (industry) communication, media communication, worker reporting, third-party reporting, boycott, voluntary compliance initiatives, amongst others. The agencies at play include WorkSafeBC, RCMP, The BC Forest Safety Council, the WSCA, Ministry of Labour, Ministry of Forests and Range, BC Federation of Labour, and Canada Revenue Agency (and others, but these are the keys). For example, a contractor could use the technique of third-party reporting to bring WorkSafeBC into play on a dangerous jobsite that he or she witnesses in the local area. Or, a worker could use the technique of worker-reporting to involve Ministry of Labour or BC Fed of Lab into play on improper payroll practices. This assists with the detection. Then, the industry (perhaps through the WSCA) can network with the regulatory agencies and lobby for more active and effective enforcement and help the officers and personnel obtain more accurate information and understanding of the industry. Pressure the government and agencies for better enforcement, and communicate with the media to encourage action. This addresses both the enforcement and punishment actions. Workers can also support this by following through on their grievances. If you were ripped out of several weeks pay, go after them and don’t give up. Yes, it can be a lot of effort for limited reward for the individual. However, when such action occurs en masse, the implications for the unscrupulous can be devastating.

What we need to do is figure out how to encourage such behaviours, and provide guidance to workers and contractors on how to obtain good results. Moreover, one must learn how to use such techniques without exposing themselves to counterattack lawsuits based on libel or breach of contract. Know that the unscrupulous actors may try to use every available tool to strike back at those that seek to expose their dishonest ways.

I believe there are many ways that the aforementioned techniques can be utilized to increase the collective efficacy of the identified agencies in greatly reducing unscrupulous behaviour in the industry. Keep in mind, total elimination is highly unlikely, but if we can knock the socks off the worst actors, we all win! When I hear contractors and workers agreeing on an issue and conversing (even if it is just in a blog), I start to believe that there are actually steps that can be taken in this direction.

My first suggestion is a modest one. Create a compliance and reporting guide. Basically, a resource or pamphlet that breaks down the mandatory safety and labour requirements of the job. This would include basic safety, camp, and worksite requirements, as well as labour regulations such as pay and hours etc.. Summarize it all in a neat and comprehensible format. Accompany this information with a list of the agencies and personnel to contact if a worker feels they are being exploited or endangered, or if a person or contractor observed something that they believe requires investigation. This all involves greasing the wheels of the machinery that already exists. It’s not a lot. I have also thought that an informal or (less than a union) worker organization would be a positive step as well….some type of worker body that can communicate with the industry and the regulatory agencies to give workers a cohesive voice. The WSCA speaks for many of the contractors, and I believe that they would largely welcome a coordinated and involved worker presence at the industry level. Obviously, there are indications based on past events that there is common ground between workers and contractors, and there are certain key issues in the industry that a joint effort could help address.

The problem is that nobody is going to do all the work for everyone else. It takes collective efforts. Anger and frustration without action is impotence. If people take one thing away from the discussions that have occurred here, I hope it is a commitment to follow through and take action (either reporting or filing official grievances) in response to the unusual but unacceptable mistreatment of workers. I’m going to keep doing my part, and hope that the angst propels others to join the fray.

Rainman · Post by **Rainman** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:24 am

Looks like there are many more details of of this saga that are still coming out. This one is sad and I hope it gets looked in to carefully.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/F ... story.html