Shakti Reforestation

[Tupperfan]

Hi all, been a while I posted here. This is a long post and it might look like I'm going off-topic, but please bare with me...

Last summer, while helping out delivering a contract near Edson/Hinton, Alberta, I met Chris, owner of Shakti, and 10-year planter, as he came to help for a few days with a few of his planters, after being done with all his contracts.

The guy is still planting and let's say his equipment (A double-axle 2008 Ford F-350 FIST unit with two winches!!! A huge luxury camper trailer that probably doubled as a "cook shack", recent Honda Foreman 500 quads) was all brand-new and in top-notch condition, to the point I wondered how much money the guy made and what his planters' wage were. After a few discussions, I learned that he didn't make any money as an owner and would have to find work in Fort McMurray during the off season to pay off some debts. He said his 10 planters made an average of $500/day during their two months of contracts in BC. He said he had a cook and paid an injured tree-planter to run trees. He had no crewboss/foreman, would check quality himself after planting and his cook would double as admin assistant. Chris made a really good impression on me.

He saw my work and offered me a job for the upcoming season as a tree deliverer, offering, well, $300/day to deliver about 20 planters!!!

Okay, I had it hard during my spring season in Ontario last year, delivering 50+ planters alone, working often up to 20 hours a day for about $200 a day. We were understaffed, but we managed to give one of the best wages and money made by treeplanters in Ontario in recent years. Nothing when you compared to last year in BC or even Alberta. When I got in Alberta to help out, it appeared that I could help a lot out there, just out of the extreme conditions I faced all spring and the camp supervisor was apparently quite impressed with my work, saying he'd take me back anytime.

So did Chris, but his offer somewhat sounded way too generous. I left before the end of the contract, after the camp got one of its regular tree-runners back from a short vacation, going to Banff for a few months before coming back to Montreal, where I got a relatively interesting office job.

I always had Chris' offer in mind and when I realized I wanted to go back for the 2008 season, I wrote him an email. He reiterated his offer: $300/day to deliver 14 planters, check trees and assist with admin duties. At the same time, I got an offer from my previous planting company Alberta regional manager, offering to go back to the camp I helped out last summer in Edson/Hinton as the camp supervisor specifically asked to have me(Which is always a good ego booster! ). The money was less interesting, delivering roughly 50 planters (but at least we'd be two experienced deliverers) but the contract lasts a full 3 months and I'm somewhat more familiar with the expectations, contracts, people...

On the other hand, I always wanted to try a small outfit in BC, so I was torn between a good-paying, cool and (relatively) relax job which sounded a little unrealistic, or a stable, safe delivery job for the "Wal-Mart of Treeplanting", as some people refer to Outland.

I know wages in BC last year were quite high, due in part to the mountain pine beetle ravaging forests and the resulting workforce shortage, and that it's easier for small companies to better pay their employees, but I couldn't shake off my instincts that something was wrong. Last week, Chris emailed me. He lost a contract and couldn't afford to pay a deliverer anymore. He offered me to come for a week or two "to give it a try", but by then I already accepted to work in Alberta/Saskatchewan for Outland.

Yet, he offered me to contact him again next year. I don't know about that, but I have a few questions I'd like to ask other people:

Is there any Shakti planters here? How much did you make in average, if you planted last season? How was the general experience, atmosphere?

Is it reasonable to operate a small planting outfit and to pay a cook for 10 planters? To have what would be considered as luxury equipment in any other company, as sweet as it would be? (you guys should have seen the camper trailer!) To pay a tree deliverer $300 bucks a day for about 15-20 planters? I have serious doubts.

Is it me getting sucked into the big company's way of thinking? I mean, it might be all reasonable if the planters make an average $500 per day. But when the owner doesn't make money... Don't get me wrong, I think it's normal to have debts when you start a company and have to buy new equipment, I just want to get more insights.

I want to insist on the fact I'm not trying to bash. As I said, Chris made a great impression and he looked like, as we say in french, he had a good head on his shoulders. My only goal is to get more information from other sources.

Anyways, if anyone is curious to learn a little more about Shakti, here's the website:

http://shaktireforestation.com/

[The_Hammer]

Hi Tupperfan,

I worked for Chris at Shakti for a good chunk of last season, although I don't think I was there when you would have met him.

Anyway, to answer your questions: yes, I can believe the planting average was over $500 a day. I did over that myself, and I was probably somewhere in the middle of pack as far as production was concerned. That said, I should explain the relationship between all of us making big money as planters and Chris not making any as the owner: Shakti is run as a company for planters. Not for the management, but for those of us in the front lines -- which includes Chris whenever he can spare the time, I should mention. Chris paid us well (very, very well) knowing that more than anything else would bring us back to plant again. And he lost money doing it; but that's how committed he is to his philosophy that nothing is more important than the planters.

As for the culture, most of us that were at Shakti last summer were already friends from other companies and contracts, so it was pretty chill. If I had to choose one phrase to describe us, I would say that we liked to complain a lot. That might sound harsh, but it's actually quite amusing; no one does sarcasm like Shakti And as for paying $300 daily to run trees... well, not to blow our collective horn, but our crew plants a lot of trees. A lot of trees. High tree prices weren't the only reason we were making $500 a day! And if the extra people Chris hired for this summer are the people I think he's hired, the tree runner's going to have a full plate.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Tupperfan]

Thanks for the reply Mike!

From what I've gathered, it sounded like what you've portrayed. But I wanted to confirm and get more details. There's a certain information that will always be better accepted when stated by someone else...

I've seen and heard Shakti's commitment to planters in Chris words and actions. He was also straightforward about his planters' earnings and his own revenues which I thought was a good sign. I think one of the things that convinced Chris about me filling the delivery job is that I consider myself a planter first and am fully commited to the planters as a tree runner.

The job being hard would not have been a problem, as I said, I delivered a record-breaking camp alone last year, most of the truck access turning into quad due to very shitty weather (Was supposed to be 50-50, became 75-25 in quad's favour) and I worked an average of 17 hours a day...

Reading your experience makes me wish it would have been possible to work for Chris and Shakti. Might happen next season, who knows? I wish Chris luck and success with his business and I'd still love to hear feedback from other planters.

[the_dude]

dont work under luengo. be smart about it and go to shakti.

I've made the choice the other way before and worked under pete/luengo and i regret it.

[Some negative opinions in this post have been removed by an administrator due to legal issues. Please contact the post's original author for clarification.]

[Tupperfan]

Well, I don't work for him. But never worked for the guy so I won't get there. I'm working for Byron White. I don't know him much as I went to help his contract for two weeks last season, but I like what I've seen and he's a pretty cool guy.

As for Shakti, as I said, Chris told me that he won't have a full-time deliverer this season so that option was out...

[the_dude]

as i understand it, luengo is the 'western division' of alberta manager.

[Some negative opinions in this post have been removed by an administrator due to legal issues. Please contact the post's original author for clarification.]

[Tupperfan]

Doesn't mean I don't have any issues with some managerial decisions, but I do think there's good people and good contracts in this company. Been lucky until now, I'll cross my fingers so it remains that way. If not, well I'll have learned the hard way and I'll know better...

[siapatakut]

Hey Tupperfan,

I just thought I'd reply to your original post since I also worked for Shakti last summer. I don't actually have much to add to what Mike said, but I figured two voices were stronger than one. Working for Chris was fantastic; Shakti was by far the best money I've made in my 5 years of planting. I'd be crazy to go anywhere else this summer! Chris is extrememly hardworking. And I think it's pretty incredible; how rare is it to find a guy who's willing to go into debt instead of cutting the treeprice by 5 cents? Also, Shakti was a lot more relaxed than the big companies I've worked for; you get to provide a lot more of your own feedback, suggestions, etc... Chris was always asking us what we thought about this and that...in most other companies you just get told where to go, and it hardly matters what you think.

Cheers,

Julia

[Gnarly]

I thought I'd also post a reply to Tupperfan's original post. I haven't (yet) worked for Chris at Shakti, but I will be working for him this year and have known and worked with him and a number of his planters for years. Mike and Julia have summed up most of what I would say, but I though I'd make a few general points. For one, I find it strange to place doubt on a guy because he isn't profiting in his early stages of running a company- especially with the forestry industry in the state that it is these days. Also, when you rely entirely on your equipment without the backup of additional vehicles, it is crucial for it to be reliable and in great condition- this is not a luxury- it is a necessity (though I hear that the trailer has been downsized to a smaller one). I think your doubts are mostly the result of the differences between working for a large company in Ontario, and a small one in BC- it's a very different game. For a small BC company with high production planters I don't think $300 is an unreasonable amount to expect for a long, hard day of work running trees and setting up blocks. But that's just my opinion. The fact is that Chris is an insanely hard working and personable guy, and has a lot of amazing planters working for him- they will do well. Hope you have a great season.
Cheers,
Carlie

[Tupperfan]

Thanks for the reply but I think my original post might have sound harsher and a little more clumsy than it was intended.

First of all, I didn't want to question the fact he didn't make money, I was wondering if his business was viable in the future and I wanted to know what was Shakti's planters experience last year. We all heard of some companies not paying their planters. I completely respect the fact he doesn't make money at first and plans to set a great working environment. I understand the need for good equipment. I can't really complain as I usually get good stuff, but this was a notch up, and, well, that's awesome. But seeing that huge camper trailer, which I guess is a good replacement for a cook shack was quite an impressive sight and I wondered if it was tha necessary That's all.

As for the working hard part, I've been busting my ass in Alberta and Ontario for years for less than that, and what he was offering was more for way less planters. Thus questionning the money. Shakti planters might be high production planters, but they are relatively few. I talked with Chris and the numbers planted were still less than 50 planters in fast land. Therefore my questions. I'd be the first one to be happy to be paid such money for my efforts, but I had questions as my background showed me I didn't get such money while working hard...I do understand that smaller companies are an advantage for the planters, as the money is not lost in a huge hierarchy and for questionable equipment and offices. I would be interested to work for such a company, and I never wanted to make the apology of bigger companies and their ways, although I must admit I don't hate or grew bitter with such companies either. There's a few good points to work for such forestry companies, but I do re-evaluate my judgement as seasons pass by. But I wanted to get insight, info and I damn did I get some!

Thanks to everybody for the info, it's overwhelmingly positive. And again, I have to insist I was really not trying to bash or bitch, even if it sounded like I was.

As I said, won't be possible to experience the Shakti difference this year, hopefully next year.

Have good season!

[TheHamsterizer]

Thanks for the reply but I think my original post might have sound harsher and a little more clumsy than it was intended.

First of all, I didn't want to question the fact he didn't make money, I was wondering if his business was viable in the future and I wanted to know what was Shakti's planters experience last year. We all heard of some companies not paying their planters. I completely respect the fact he doesn't make money at first and plans to set a great working environment. I understand the need for good equipment. I can't really complain as I usually get good stuff, but this was a notch up, and, well, that's awesome. But seeing that huge camper trailer, which I guess is a good replacement for a cook shack was quite an impressive sight and I wondered if it was tha necessary That's all.

As for the working hard part, I've been busting my ass in Alberta and Ontario for years for less than that, and what he was offering was more for way less planters. Thus questionning the money. Shakti planters might be high production planters, but they are relatively few. I talked with Chris and the numbers planted were still less than 50 planters in fast land. Therefore my questions. I'd be the first one to be happy to be paid such money for my efforts, but I had questions as my background showed me I didn't get such money while working hard...I do understand that smaller companies are an advantage for the planters, as the money is not lost in a huge hierarchy and for questionable equipment and offices. I would be interested to work for such a company, and I never wanted to make the apology of bigger companies and their ways, although I must admit I don't hate or grew bitter with such companies either. There's a few good points to work for such forestry companies, but I do re-evaluate my judgement as seasons pass by. But I wanted to get insight, info and I damn did I get some!

Thanks to everybody for the info, it's overwhelmingly positive. And again, I have to insist I was really not trying to bash or bitch, even if it sounded like I was.

As I said, won't be possible to experience the Shakti difference this year, hopefully next year.

Have good season!

Dude, you're just used to working for outland... There are lots of companies that pay their employees well and hire enough management so that one person isn't worked to the bone. It sounds like you would also be foremanning for the 14 planters... Delivering and checking trees is basically a foremans job.

As for the owner not making money- He probably wants to build his small company by attracting good experienced workers to get a good foundation started. A smart owner will take a pay cut at first to keep good planters and foremen coming back.

And he might have an impressive expensive camper trailer, but I bet he doesn't have offices in toronto, thunder bay, calgary etc. with full time staff. Or have to constantly train and aggressively hirerookies and rookie foremen. That kind of thing costs a lot of money! This is how a small company can pay it's workers so well. No overhead!

[Tupperfan]

Dude, you're just used to working for outland... There are lots of companies that pay their employees well and hire enough management so that one person isn't worked to the bone. It sounds like you would also be foremanning for the 14 planters... Delivering and checking trees is basically a foremans job.

As for the owner not making money- He probably wants to build his small company by attracting good experienced workers to get a good foundation started. A smart owner will take a pay cut at first to keep good planters and foremen coming back.

And he might have an impressive expensive camper trailer, but I bet he doesn't have offices in toronto, thunder bay, calgary etc. with full time staff. Or have to constantly train and aggressively hirerookies and rookie foremen. That kind of thing costs a lot of money! This is how a small company can pay it's workers so well. No overhead!

That's basically a reformulation of what I said in the text you quoted, right? I understand what people are saying in regards to bigger companies, and I'm curious to experience the "small company feeling", but hey, I will have to wait another year at least, apparently.

I remember Chris saying he was thinking of also hiring a foreman/planter, his camp consisting of a lot of high-production planters, and I would have been only helping with checking while focusing on delivering. But planter's supervision, training and ultimate checking would have fallen to someone else. I'd have been a hybrid if you will...

As for Outland, I understand some comments. Not feeling defensive or in dire need to speak for my employer, but I believe they did improve within the last few years, among other points on safety, camp management (in most cases) and tree-prices (no, they are not always the lowest bidders)...Not as good as some other companies out there, and it is definitely a heavy hierarchy and bureaucracy, but I never personally experienced any of the horrors stories, huge quitting rates and mismanagement I've heard in some other companies, and I've always been treated well and made good money despite never being a highballer, just a regular, steady planter.

There's a high rookie rate out east for sure, as in most companies there. But the camp I'll work for in Alberta has a 80% vet rate. The camp I worked for last year in Ontario had a 60% vet rate. We only had one quitter. Tree rate was decent by Ont standards, between 9 and 11 cents for various prep and unprep (granted, not much in comparison to BC, but it's usually faster land...not always though!) in pretty standard Northern Ontario land. Definitely not what I often hear about most Ontario planting companies...

As for Shakti, I'll say it again, I'd like to try it out one day! Time will tell...

[TheHamsterizer]

'That's basically a reformulation of what I said in the text you quoted, right?'

oops, yeah you're right... I just read the whole discussion and kind of skimmed the last part....

[kenax]

Hi guys, I worked for Chris during the second year of his company (2008) and I have good and bad things to say. First the good. The crew were great and Chris has a good knack of pulling together hardcore planters. But he's a fast planter with ten years experience, as I read above, and anyone like that who starts his own company will probably find it easier to get his fast planting friends to join his crew. In any case, based on the complaints I heard over the summer around camp, not everyone will necessarily return next year and Chris may find himself resorting to rookies as everyone else has to.
From what I learned, he paid his planters very well his first year, as was commented a few times above. It was also 2007, which was possibly the best year in treeplanting, after the big pine beetle problem.
The second year of his business, when I showed up, did not seem anything particularly special, because I was making roughly the same as I was 20 years earlier. Except I was at the bottom of the pack, this pack a bunch of crazed super highballers averaging around 500 dollars a day. When we worked as a crew for some other companies, the other crew's eyes sprang out of their heads at our numbers. At 250$ a day, relatively to this other crew, I was once again a highballer. So the high prices stated above are indicative of the crew, which is the cream of the industry, and not based on what Chris was paying his planters during his second year of operations. He himself admitted that his crew was making a "retarded" amount of money his first year, so I think he adjusted his prices a bit during his second year. In any case, realistically speaking, the industry works on a bidding process and there is no magic formula to pay people a lot of money while making enough profits oneself to sustain one's operations.
In which case it can be better to work for a company whose operations are well oiled, efficient, and with as little downtime as possible. With Shakti there was a certain amount of downtime which would cancel out any supposed surplus in tree prices. Then again, this is perfectly understandable with a startup company, and excusable.
My greatest complaint, which I find inexcusable, is that I felt fairly shortchanged after the summer. He asked me to help him with his accounting, but when I got there (after I had already put a lot of time and preparations into it), he'd say, "Sorry, I guess I'm fickle and decided to go with someone else's system." Well, in my books, once you commission someone with a job, you pay for it and it shouldn't be my problem that he changed his mind afterwards. Later on he changed his mind again and asked me to help him, but never paid me for any of it (except on one occasion). He said he'd like to compare the two systems, but then said he didn't understand mine, even though I offered countless times to explain it to him, and it was his justification for not paying me anything. There are many such examples through the entire summer, as I did some things for him around camp, and then there were problems with taxes, so overall I could say it cost at least 2,000$. Perhaps he allowed himself to treat me this way because I live in Europe (and hence fairly far to extract any earnings I wasn't paid), I wasn't one of his previous buddies, and perhaps he lacked respect for me. But none of these reasons justify shortchanging someone for their work. So overall I'd say I wasn't impressed, although I understand the appeal of working for someone who still likes to treeplant, and I do not hold any personal grudges against him. But business is simply business.
I also felt he was not the most respectful towards his subordinates and I myself would not want to work under him. But to his credit, he worked very hard the whole summer. Things were perhaps disorganized occasionally, but I assume his operations will only improve over the next few years.

--------------------------------------------------

Check out my tree planting website http://hardcoretreeplanters.com/ where I wrote down all my tips how to plant fast and all the other tips I accumulated after 7 years of planting.

[frieght train]

Been Offered a job with shakti,just wondering if there is any other opinions out there,I would love to hear them???

Thanks!

[mel_eff]

I was a rookie with Shakti this year. The crew was small, the organization sometimes that of a Chinese flea market in a monsoon, and I had a rad time with them. Chris planted with us when trees allowed, and he's got the best attitude I've ever seen in anyone who runs a company in such a volatile industry. That attitude of course is, "Shit happens, often".

Obviously I don't know a whole lot about pricing on contracts yet, but I can say I made a decent amount of coin this year, being my first year and all. I was able to "Hit 2K" on some really good days, and Chris gave the planters opportunity to work or take a day off on some contracts. We'd be on contracts with other companies sometimes where our prices were a few cents more than what the "big" company was getting. Our shifts varied depending on what the planters wanted. Sometimes we'd pull 4 days, sometimes 5, 6, or 7. There was a considerable amount of downtime, with two 3 day contract breaks, snow days at the beginning of the season, travel days (a lot of moving around). He was very appreciative of any help that was offered. It was really a joined effort to get things going sometimes, and everyone pitched in to help. When it 'really' mattered, there wasn't a lazy ass to be found on the crew. Chris especially was not lazy. If you couldn't find him in his trailer in the evenings, it's because he was scoping out access to tomorrow's block, working on the quads, or trying to figure out how to make things more efficient. Being the only rookie on the crew (and the best rookie by default, booooo-yaaaaaaw), I was able to learn a huge amount from these people, who had a combined experience of over 80 years, and I did so without any sort of shit and abuse from anyone. They truly wanted me to succeed, and it was a great way to learn how to plant, and plant well. As far as fun goes, Chris would be right in there for nights off with us. On a couple of rare exceptionally horrifying days, everyone got back to the motel where cold beer and hot pizza awaited us. It showed that he cared, that he actually gave a crap about us, and all he wanted was for us to do well.

The foremen were great. They were extremely safe on the quads, in the trucks, around the helicopters, and encouraged everyone else to be safe as well. They were fair. They kept the highballers happy but didn't give the less experienced planters crap pieces all the time. I never once felt like I was getting right shafted because I was the rookie, which means either they were not dickhead foremen, or they were really good at keeping me ignorantly blissful. They gave me constructive criticism/"what the hell are you doing, rook!" when I needed it, and were stoked when I'd PB.

In regards to payment, Chris paid us monthly and gave advances when needed. There was NEVER an issue with this. The last check came in mid-August, and we finished July 20th.

It's an urban myth that Chris doesn't like rookies. He can work with anyone, and really well at that. He's young, smart, and capable. And like any good businessman, he just needs the right people helping him. Like I mentioned before, I don't know much about the inner workings of a planting company as of yet, but this was my experience with them this year.

Obviously there's heaps of bullshit in any planting company every season but other than some not so good contracts (which I would think are not as few and far between as they once were) and some downtime, there's nothing wrong with a lil' Shakti.

[krahn]

man i've been wanting to work with these guys for a few years now, if i planted in bc again. if i can get some cybernetic knee implants maybe i'll get my chance yet.

[Mike]

Updated Contact info

Shakti Reforestation Ltd.
RR1, Elnora, AB
T0M 0Y0
Tel: 403-352-8773
Fax: 403-451-1689

Chris Harris, Manager & Contractor
chris@shaktireforestation.com

Andrea Johnson, Assistant Manager
andrea@shaktireforestation.com
Tel: 780-264-5825
http://shaktireforestation.com/contact/


Also, rumours I heard were that these guys are mostly based out of Alberta; but on their site I can't find a location mentioned and people here say BC. What's up with that?

[shakattack]

That is our address:

Shakti Reforestation Ltd.
RR1, Elnora, AB
T0M 0Y0

It goes by name on some rural routes. We're based there and Edmonton, and in trailers wherever we work. It's awesome. Mostly Alberta but BC too.

[ohsnap]

super curious on how their high level stuff went this season, anyone got any news?

[Nate]

super curious on how their high level stuff went this season, anyone got any news?

Did they take work from Wildwoods, or is there more than one mill up there?

[Chocolatej]

I think their High Level work (around Rainbow Lake) was oil and gas for 30$/h. Not sure how it went but it probably wasn't bad.

[sghyselincks]

Tolko, La Crete, and Ainsworth are the mills in High Level. Their reforestation operations are all headed by the Tolko mill. They had 20 million trees to plant this year divided between Summit, Shakti, Wildwoods, and Little Red. I heard that Shakti had 2 million of those and that the majority were in the older "green" blocks at around 11 cents for rips, 12 cent hoe plow, 13 cents direct. Similar pricing scheme to Wildwoods (Freshcut = 10cent rips, 11cent hoe plow, 11.5 direct, 12 cents "green" (rips or hoe plow). Better pricing than Summit which I believe is doing 9cent rips, 10cent hoe plow. I think they were generally successful with their season, working mostly out of a fly-in camp near La Crete. Rumor has it that they floated their camp out down the river instead of slinging it out with a chopper.

[Scooter]

I worked there once for Outland, many years ago. We burned the camp and buried the stoves, rather than paying the expense of flying them out. It made sense. Why spend $800 to fly a stove out (an hour round-trip) when you could spend $500 and buy a brand-new stove in the city?

By "we" I mean that Outland did this; I was just a planter joining the contract for a short time while the company that I worked for regularly had some downtime.

I guess they were AFS trees too, not Tolko.

[sghyselincks]

Can you imagine what a future archaeologist is going to think when they dig up one of those stoves?

[ohsnap]

thanks simon for the info!

i think that shatki bought a marshmaster, as i'm fairly certain jeff's contract with them is now over. i remember some details from the video chris made for this past season, sounded like it could have been a very lucrative season.

[Lewis]

FYI...Pretty sure I saw these guys on the highway between high level and Rainbow Lake a couple days ago, towing two sleds. I can't be sure what they were doing, but I figured it was MPB surveys.

[Scooter]

Or maybe getting ready for cone picking? They do a lot of that.

[Lewis]

I've never done cone picking but I just read that they pick the cones from freshly harvested blocks. The only hauling I've seen has been from north of High Level and west of Fort Vermilion. There's also 30cm-40cm of snow on the ground, so not sure how that would affect the work.