Which Company?

[Ralph]

Hi all,

This will be my first year planting, and I have job offers from both A&M and Apex. I take it most people do not look too kindly towards A&M by the previous topics and posts. I would however like to hear some feedback about Apex, preferably for some people who have worked for them and not just hearsay. Ideally I want to go with the company that gives me the most income potential as possible...in which case Apex would definitely be the best choice, but I also want feedback on things like the quality of training I can get, how you're treated, etc. And what's this I hear about planting with dibbles?

[vacationer]

Apex planters must plant with dibbles, which as far as I know are used nowhere else other than Quebec. I can't imagine it would be very hard for you to switch to a shovel next year. As for the company, I've never worked for them but they have a poor reputation. They hire a ton of rookies, and then pay bonuses to any vets willing to come back. These bonuses come off the tree price, so essentially Apex takes money from rookies who are simply happy to have a job and uses it to keep planters who would otherwise leave -- this seems like a pretty clear indication of what kind of company they are. I've also noticed that a lot of their foremen a) don't seem to have spent more than two or three seasons planting before being given a crew and b) view this as a good thing in the sense that it's easy to become management quickly, which is a ridiculous point of view and causes me to think they probably have a pretty sheltered and narrow view of the silviculture industry. You know what, though? I'd say go work for Apex. Experience in BC is useful and they probably have a longer season than A&M.

PS If any of the above information is out of date, Apex employees are welcome to offer corrections.

[donkeyrider]

I currently work for Apex. This is my 4th season working with them. I do agree with most of what Vacationer says. Vet's do recieve a $25 dollar bonus. The comapny is pro management, but rookies are not neglected as was my experience. Many people beleive that dibbles are less effective then shovels and I dont think this is true. Dibbles are much faster then shovels on fast land. The motion of planting with a dibble is simple, all you have to do is slam it in and pull it out where as a shovel is more technical. I found the dibble to be easy to learn with and reduced the learning curve of planting good ( or I should say better quality. Apex uses dibbles to help reduce the amount of j-Roots and mangled plugs. That said last season I planted with a shovel and loved it. I could plant just as fast with a shovel as with a dibble. I planted against a guy who started the same year as myself to see who would plant faster... him with a shovel and me with a dibble. The result was alsmot always I would beat him on fast ground and he would plant more on slashy ground. However, it was never by more then a bag up. All this said I plant with both a shovel and a dibble. Last year when our crew planted slashy ass contract Apex was handing out shovels to work with if you wanted to use them. You Ralph, will enevitably start out with a dibble.

Every year I've planted with Apex I've had a full season (may 1st to august 1st) with next to no down time. Some people complain about this but it means more money in my pocket. I've never planted land less then 11 cents and almost never make less then 250 a day (before bonus + driver pay). When the contracts or land looks unfair Supers are usually willing to bump the price up a cent or two. Last year I planted some of the ugliest fucking most dangerous retarded blocks Ive ever seen (for those from apex who are reading this Im speaking fo the death cliff and the block outside of valemont that Phil's crew planted) on these blocks I made more then my daily average the tree prices were like 25cents a tree and the death cliff I think was bumped to 31cents. What this is leading to is that Apex in my opinion is reliable. Never late pay, always fair pay, and always lots of work days.

On top of this Apex always has brand new trucks and ATV's... I've never had a day in 4 years where I haven't made it to work because of vehicals. I think it is true that Apex does promote managers after a two or three years... sometimes its 4. My experience is that most of the foremen are just as hard working as the planters. They work hard for you and expect you to work hard for them. The first shift the comapany gives foreman a day rate so that they can put all their time into training their Rooks if they have any. If you work for us this year you will not be handed a dibble and pushed onto a block and told, "green part goes up". Lastly, Apex does hire many Rookies but I think its over the top to say that the company hires predominately rookies... my estimated guess is that APex has about 70-80% vetern planters.

I dont really know anything about A&M so I cant tell you which is a better company, and I do admit there are better companies out there. All I can say is Apex has been a good experience for me. I make enough to go to school for 8 months and or travel for 8. This last year I went to school from sept-dec then took off to australia until last week and I'm still running on the cash I made last season.

Thats All I have to say,

By the way who is it that is trying to hire you?

[vacationer]

"What this is leading to is that Apex in my opinion is reliable. Never late pay, always fair pay, and always lots of work days ...

... On top of this Apex always has brand new trucks and ATV's... I've never had a day in 4 years where I haven't made it to work because of vehicals."

I've never understood this. Sure, it's nice to ride in a new truck, but when was the last time any of us didn't make it to work because a truck broke down? I've missed more work from locking keys in new trucks that can't be broken into easily. The "new equipment" thing is totally moot in my opinion. Sometimes great companies, all the best companies I've worked for in fact, have old trucks and jerry-rigged camps. And pretty much all really shitty companies lease new trucks and buy new stuff when it breaks because they don't have anyone around capable of fixing anything. And in many years of planting I have never not been paid, and I have never cared much whether I was paid on time or a few days or weeks late.

"I think it is true that Apex does promote managers after a two or three years... sometimes its 4."

This doesn't happen at most other companies because they have a pool of more experienced people who want those jobs. In one job posting I can recall, an Apex foreman mentioned the ease of being promoted at Apex as a selling point, which I thought probably meant the guy was ignorant and didn't realize that getting promoted at good companies is difficult.


"Lastly, Apex does hire many Rookies but I think its over the top to say that the company hires predominately rookies... my estimated guess is that APex has about 70-80% vetern planters."

Until the economy crashed they did hire predominantly rookies, and certainly more rookies than any comparable company. This season, a company with 70-80 percent experiences planters will probably have the least experienced crews in the province. It makes me laugh when in down years rookie companies brag about how many vets they've suddenly managed to retain. Anyway, the guy who asked the original question should definitely take the job at Apex, and the guy from Apex who posted in this thread should probably take a look around at other places he could be planting, if not this season then the next. If Apex will pay you to stick around, it stands to reason someone else will pay you more to simply plant trees.

[Nate]

I've never understood this. Sure, it's nice to ride in a new truck, but when was the last time any of us didn't make it to work because a truck broke down?

When the axle "falls off" the truck you're riding in you'll begin to appreciate it. But yeah, it is kind of over-rated on the whole.

I'm not sure if this helps differentiate between Apex/A&M though.

[Scooter]

If you worked as a planter 10 years ago, you'd appreciate the new trucks a bit more. Back then, we usually lost 3 days per season due to truck downtime. Kind of sucks when you think that you lose $200 each day (back then - now it would be higher).

[donkeyrider]

Just a general question to throw out there to Vacationer. I have thought about leaving Apex and doing exactly what you've said "look for someone who will pay me more to just plant". I guess part of why I stay is because I do get paid fairly well (or so I believe) but since I haven't worked for anyone else how do I know. I could just be very ignorant about whats out there for a tree planter at other companies. But how can you tell what company is a better choice? I think you can agree that most planters much like myself promote the company they currently work for. Others seem to complain about ones they had a bad experience about. That said, if I wanted to leave my current employer and "lone ranger" myself to another how do I find a shit detector good enough to read in between the lines of what others have said? Everyone says, "good prices, good land, good camp... blah blah blah." where does a free agent look for the truth?

[newb]

solid question donkeyrider, i also want to find that super baller company everyone talks about.

but i guess im the new guy, so ill wait my turn...

[the_dude]

This maybe the long route, but can provide some sweet results. call companies and ask them, and if you can get on, or they need to check your references, ask for some planters contacts so you can ask them average $/organization etc.... thats what I did, and it should work out pretty well for me (knock on wood)

[the_dude]

Hey Donkeyrider, i think it was you who worked for Apex and contributed to a threat about fights? something about GP at when another planter accidentally punched you? was this at Egans?

[vacationer]

Accumulated knowledge and trial and error. The planting world is less confusing every year you do it. After half a decade or so you'll be able to look a situation up and down, compare it with previous situations, reference it against what you know of the people and companies involved, and make a good decision. The only thing that usually delays this is spending your first few years with a company like Apex -- their planters just don't seem to get a lot of information about the rest of the industry. It's like Ontario smack in the middle of BC. Your best bet is to plant in the Kootenays. There are a lot of good companies there and you'll meet lots of planters who've been around the block. The information is just there, and you'll absorb it. You will also develop connections with people who work the coast so you can eventually get in there if you want.

[donkeyrider]

Thanks that kinda hits the spot that I'm not the only one having trouble figuring out what and how to find out what the plantign community has to offer. When you call a company can you actually ask them for other planters contact info? I think that would be a good way to grasp a better understanding of what that comapy has to offer.

"The dude"
No it wasn't in grand prarie it was in Prince George and it was a guy who kept on messing up trees and stuff and was making the entire crew replant everyday. It wasnt a fight more like a disagreement about quality... Looking back I probibly shouldnt have goaded him on but I know I was right. Apex plants in groups... you dont get your own pieces so when theres no flagging and your all pretty close to the same speed or in a cattle plant and you see someone intentionally slam a couple dozen trees in the ground because he's lazy and you and others have to fix constantly... kneedless to say it began to grind on me. It was a cache arguement and it was on the verge of blowing up, and not because he denied planting bad trees, but becasue he took the stand of many of the other people on this forum "fuck off and mind your own bussiness", but I guess it was a situation you would ahve had to be there for. the only person on the 18 pack of rookies and 3 vets that didnt approve of it was him. For the record we were all rookies that year and we were all on the same Crew... that practice of teaching well not 18 but 15 rookies at the same time doesnt happen at Apex anymore as far as I know. I dont think this kinda thing could happen to me anymore because on a whole I dont care what others plant especially if they know what there doing now. I just keep to myself and make sure I'm at the front of the pack staying outta everyones way.

But thats all water under the bridge now...

I drive this year for Apex and make some pretty good money... Like greg said in another post Apex pays drivers 40 and 25 as a vet bonus. so thats 65 for going to work plus what I plant whci is usaully 230- 275 a day. I know the vet bonus seems like it would greatly diminish the price of trees , but wouldnt the price of vehicals and quads and other stuff like disiel make that wimpy 25 bucks per vet negligible?

[Greg M.]

Accumulated knowledge and trial and error. The planting world is less confusing every year you do it. After half a decade or so you'll be able to look a situation up and down, compare it with previous situations, reference it against what you know of the people and companies involved, and make a good decision. The only thing that usually delays this is spending your first few years with a company like Apex -- their planters just don't seem to get a lot of information about the rest of the industry. It's like Ontario smack in the middle of BC. Your best bet is to plant in the Kootenays. There are a lot of good companies there and you'll meet lots of planters who've been around the block. The information is just there, and you'll absorb it. You will also develop connections with people who work the coast so you can eventually get in there if you want.

Yep I'd have to agree with what Vacationers said. As well the dude hit it right on with the contacting of companies and asking for info, I've definately seen the large companies hold onto that "you're priveleged to have a job attitude so shut up and plant" which can work for some but when it hits the fan deteriorates very quickly.

As far as finding a good company to work for, it depends on what you want, parties, organization, money... I know a lot of planters who SAY they wouldput up with a lot of shit for money but have seen those same old vets bitch and moan about a company not being organized enough when it snows over night and not having a place for 25 planters to get a full day in the next day. (jeez, i know)

What I really find very unhelpful is when those old planters figure it hold onto information likr they are part of the last cream show around and they'd rather die than give up some info or god forbid a phone number.....

Donkeyrider .. i can empathize with you in many respects, the best advice is to use the tools you have available and gather as much info ... ask questions, despite the shit storm that ensues on the forum when someone has a slightly niave question it is a good way to network.

I've had plenty of luck with the private messaging..

[the_dude]

Donkeyrider:
damn i was hoping it was you. I accidentally punched an apex planter one night in GP and even though we worked it out I still feel bad, hoping it was you.

PM'ing planters on this board has provided some pretty sweet opportunities as well. Its how I got hooked up with Greg M. a couple years ago, and I got some great feedback on other contracts and contacts since then. This is a pretty damn sweet site for that actually, solid resource.

[Slash Monkey]

stay away from dibbles if you plan on doing mostly bc work. especially as a rookie, why bother learning some bull shit like that. learn with a shovel like everyone else does out here. as for making the most for you season, as a rookie, it doesn't really matter unfortunately. you're going to be struggling to make a hundred bucks a day anywhere you go. after you're third season is when you should start worrying about where you're planting. besides, you're going to have to get some experience under your belt before any of the good guys will hire you. at the same time, i hear bivowac hires rookies on the coast. probably not this season though. this is not a good year to be getting into reforestation at all. i'd try to do something else for a couple years if i were you.

[Duncan]

stay away from dibbles if you plan on doing mostly bc work. especially as a rookie, why bother learning some bull shit like that. learn with a shovel like everyone else does out here. as for making the most for you season, as a rookie, it doesn't really matter unfortunately. you're going to be struggling to make a hundred bucks a day anywhere you go.

I have to agree strongly with this one.
Though I don't want to intrude on apex talk as I know little about it, riding a dibble in the middle of bc is not going to make you into a planting machine, and when you do find the ultra super company, it will have done little for you as a planter.

Dibblers, sorry not complete planters.
bash me as you must, but it is what it is

[vacationer]

"... riding a dibble in the middle of bc is not going to make you into a planting machine ..."

Neither will planting in Ontario for 6 weeks. It doesn't sound like the guy has much choice other than Apex at this point.

[vacationer]

And as for struggling to make a hundred bucks, this will be true for a while. But planting a longer season adds more days toward the end of the learning curve rather than the beginning. Learning to plant takes roughly the same amount of time anywhere -- the extra days you work are tacked on to the end of your season, when you have at least some knowledge of what you're doing and are making decent money.

[krahn]

i would say choose apex over a&m, but it's a close call. not learning how to use a shovel is quite the liability if you want to plant elsewheres afterwards. and from camping next to them, i know they get a couple of cents less per tree than seneca did.

however... the moral was great, people seemed to be having fun, and if there's little downtime, i guess you can still make some money. better than with a&m at least. i think you could have an enjoyable summer with apex.

[Ralph]

Thanks for the info and advice guys. I will be going with Apex this season; I'm convinced that there is definitely more income potential there. Relating to my original question though: If I were to be looking for employment with a more reputable planting company, between planting in BC with Apex using dibbles, or planting in ON with A&M using shovels...which experience do you think would look better?

I think planting in BC with apex would be the better option ; in BC I will have a better opportunity to make contacts and references with other planters for the next season than in ON, and I have a feeling that the planting experience in BC will be more important then learning to plant with a shovel

*Also keep in mind that I'm not planning on turning tree planting into a 7 year mini-career; I'll only be planting for 2 or 3, maybe 4 years max...after that I'll be doing work related to my field of study. This is just my quick fix if you will to make as much money as possible for school, even if I only take away 6k from the season after all the expenses and whatnot it will still be better then working in the city at some shitty warehouse job for $10/hr. This is really not a good year to get into ANYTHING unfortunately, but you gotta make the best of the situation.

[jono]

...

[Ralph]

Haha Jono, I guess I'll just have to see. It is a pretty typical story....but I am hoping it will turn out that way. Who knows though...shit happens and you never know what it things will be like a few years down the road....

[Greg]

ya...thats the outlook i had too when i got started...8 years later...but when you have a love/hate relationship for something...its tough to give up. especially when you see the lucrative side of it.
Additional advice for you...although it is your first season, and you might not even like the work (but you are ahead of most rooks by getting as much info as possible before jumping right in), if you do plan on doing it for 3-4 years, get in with another company early for the 2010 season. It can be tempting to go back with people and comfort and good times..but from someone that worked with Apex for 7 years...[b]it is lucrative for management (which I was) but pounding vets definitely need to find elsewhere, cause the money is better[/b]. I think Apex does a great job with training (also dependent on who your manager is, like in any company), but they do shorten the learning curve by having you plant beside the pounding vets (reasons why they arent making as much as they could be...if they arent looking to manage, they need to get out).
I finally did the leap and jumped ship from Apex. In all honesty, it was for my crew, and I got 11 pounders coming with me. Looking forward to the new experience and it should be eye-opening to see what one of the 'good' companies is like.

[Guillermo]

Do you know who your foreman is? My second year with Apex, I was on a contract with bare-roots, and we had to switch to the shovel. I have been using it ever since, and my formeans have been fine with it. I would ask your forman if he or she is okay with you using a shovel, they usually are.
On a side note, if you want to start making money fast, the dibble is much easier to learn on. Very little technique involved, just shove it into the ground. But, if Chetwynd is on your schedule this season, you will be planting bare-roots, and you will have to learn the shovel. So find out in advance, and if you're on a crew that will be doing the bare-roots, managment will have no problem with you starting the season with a shovel. In my experience, Apex is an amazing way to spend the summer. My first season, I sucked balls and still came out of it with 9000$ in my pocket, and the camps are amazing. Almost everybody is a student, or were students and liked the planting lifestyle more. there is also very little bullshit to put up with... if the price for a block seems low, the price almost always goes up, and some blocks are priced rediculously high. Last season we has a forst fire plant, 12.5 cents, no screef, one giant burn. $400 no problem. You always get paid on time, and the accomodations are usually pretty good, hotels moslty, and well run bushcamps.
And from what i've heard, Ontario planting can be brutal and unrewarding, lower tree prices and all.
Even if you do stick with the dibble, if you show up as a vet the next year with a shovel, nobody with tell you to switch back to the dibble (unless your quality is shit).

[vacationer]

"... I think planting in BC with apex would be the better option ; in BC I will have a better opportunity to make contacts and references ..."

You won't get any contacts at Apex -- most planters there haven't worked anywhere else. Get out of there after one season.

[Greg]

[quote="vacationer"]"... I think planting in BC with apex would be the better option ; in BC I will have a better opportunity to make contacts and references ..."

You won't get any contacts at Apex -- most planters there haven't worked anywhere else. Get out of there after one season.[/quote]


Thank you for making that more blunt. I don't think I did in my post.

Guillermo, yes, many of us move to the shovel at Apex because checkers are beginning to realize that you can plant a J or U or the famous and most dreaded S root with a dibble...people are shoving them in the holes and not feeling where the plug is going, what a shocker?!? I moved my entire crew to the shovel last year (all that new they would be returning this season with me) just because we knew we would be making a switch. Planters are underpaid there, yes they do learn quickly, as I stated. I have defended Apex in the past, the same way you do now. I had many wicked seasons at Apex, but have felt like the more you climb up the ladder there, the tougher things become. If you have a dynamite crew, and are on top of your shit as a foreman, you get rewarded with the more straining contracts, lower tree prices, longer days and in the end less pay for your guys and gals.
On the plus, the owners are very friendly and extremely thrifty. People talk about the 'new vehicles' and the comforts. I guarantee you that Apex has their shit down to the most cost-effective strategies in the business...there is a reason for everything they do...it all makes sense and MH knows how to run his business. Things at the top are tight and extremely effective!

On the other hand, there are a few that seem to be rewarded pretty consistently, and never really have an off contract...so maybe you are on one of those crews...if thats the case, good on ya...thank your Foreman.

[Guillermo]

I think ive been very lucky with Apex. Aside from the Fort St. James shitshow in my first season, everything since has been very good. Fair prices and a great crew. Getting a good treeplanting job is all about who you know, and I've made contacts with other companies (although not through anybody I know at Apex) and have options to work for them if I want to, but so far apex has been good and i see no reason to change a good thing. I'm 100% sure that will change down the road, as this will be only my fourth season, and I'm really not looking to get into managment. But as far as a first planting job goes, if you learn with a shovel, theres really no downside being a rookie with Apex. just do your best to contact other companies in the fall and early winter if you feel you want something different for subsequnt seasons. I'f you're not looking to make a carreer out of planting, and want reliable, decent pay for the summer, apex is the way to go.