2009 Season....how's it going

[barnbill]

just curious...with the economy the way it is...less trees than last year etc etc....how's it going for you?

[Mike]

Having a great season (it's my second), broke 2000 as many times as I did in all of last year, making good money on what I feel are very fairly priced contracts, and having a good time (aside from having to screw around with University registration on days off).

Edit:

Working for Windfirm Resources out of Houston/Smithers; had contracts with CanFor and BCTS, as well as Cheslatta Forest Products in...south of Francois Lake. Can't really comment on the prices, since this is my first year with the company and these contracts, aside from the fact it is substantially better then what I worked for last year, which was raw alberta straight plant at a fixed price of 11 cents. Prices have ranged from 11-14 cent straight plants, with fills at 18, 20.5, and 25 cents.

[millpounder]

I'm interested in what people have been experiencing as well. It would be nice if people included who they are planting for and where.

I'm just about to head out to the bush in a week or so after finishing up with Spring classes. Looking forward to it as well as how everyone's May went!

[Captain Slashpile]

like a baby in a tittybar....No seriously.....its alright....somethings not so pleasant in reagrds to bidding...doing understorey planting near nazko....could be more lucrative....im sure summer bids are in the basement as competition is fierce to get those 8 million or so july trees.....been real dry south of pg....9 years in and my back says "9 MORE!!!"

[Scooter]

Here are a few of my quick thoughts so far ...

1. I've seen a ton of planters from other companies. Ran into people in Kamloops from Celtic, Nechako, Summit, Dewan, Leader, and a few other small companies (sorry that I missed you, Myriam). The Celtic and Nechako and Leader folks were especially friendly, and I ran into them a lot - Celtic and Nechako around town and at the PetroCan, and Leader while working up near our blocks in the Bonaparte area. I should really do a few shout-outs, but there were so many I don't know where to start. Lots of individual planters and foremen, supervisors, and a big thanks to Dave Wilson from Celtic for helping me load my 5-ton one morning.

2. Prices: all over the map. I think most people planting multi-year contracts are seeing basically the same prices, at least so far. I've heard some pretty bad prices though from people starting contracts that are new to their companies. For my own camp, as always, I wish ours were a little higher, but they are better than I expected considering the state of the industry this year.

3. Text messaging: that's been the story of the year for me this summer - the most monumental industry change that I've seen, although this is maybe something that other companies caught onto in previous years, or maybe other companies haven't started into yet. Every single one of the management people in my camp (foremen, checkers, cooks, myself) have cell phones. In trying to minimize our long distance bills, we've all taken to using text messages, since we all have unlimited text plans on our phones. We're certainly not using them 100% of the time, but they are probably eliminating about 20% of our phone calls so far, and the use of texting between myself and the foremen is increasing as we get used to it. Useless for detailed conversations, but good for short communications. Also, VERY useful on the edge of cell range, when the signal strength is too low for a call to connect, but you can send a text message and know it will eventually get through because of the low amount of data being transmitted. Great when using helicopters and the crew with a handheld is out of transmission range from the truck - just send me a text to say that they need the chopper.

4. FFT Jobs: these have been the horror-story of the industry, at least in the Kamloops area. I don't think it's the job entirely, it might be partially due to the management company running the contracts. However, I had a mostly great experience in the short time that I was working on one of the jobs there, except for some quality surprises, so I'll let other people comment on the problems there. I do know that a lot of planters and companies wouldn't touch this work again with a ten-foot pole, although again, I think my camp had a unique experience and it mostly went ok.

5. Safety: I've only heard of one planting truck accident so far, pretty serious but nobody killed. It's a different company, so I'll let someone more familiar with that story talk about it if they want.

6. Everyone is desperate for July work. But you can see that from the "jobs" section here on Replant too. I'm quite happy that my camp has a fair amount of work in July, pending any economic disasters that come up in the next few weeks. Very thankful that Folklore downsized the number and size of camps rather than trying to stay the same size and cutting prices drastically. I hope a lot of other companies take that mindset going into the 2010 season, which is looking pretty bleak too.

[backcountrysister]

OK- I will dish my whole early season & current - once Im done with the FFT hell show! yes, too many horror stories- The best Ive heard- not us- the checker came out & the foreman have to give each bundle to the planter from the fist because of the heat( now whose gonna check all those obstical planted, screefed, with a bow in it trees?). Everything has to be accounted for- to the bundle and rechecked in at night- cant leave anything up on the block. anyway, anyone want to add any FFT horror stories & I will also have a couple of company reviews that will be scathing! good luck out there boys & girls..happy pounding!

[Seabass]

OK- I will dish my whole early season & current - once Im done with the FFT hell show! yes, too many horror stories- The best Ive heard- not us- the checker came out & the foreman have to give each bundle to the planter from the fist because of the heat( now whose gonna check all those obstical planted, screefed, with a bow in it trees?). Everything has to be accounted for- to the bundle and rechecked in at night- cant leave anything up on the block. anyway, anyone want to add any FFT horror stories & I will also have a couple of company reviews that will be scathing! good luck out there boys & girls..happy pounding!

And I thought we had it bad on our contract in PG where we have to keep our caches elevated and boxes open like they're summer trees... checkers are super anal and will not talk to planters; only foremen and the supervisor. It makes life super annoying when the foreman finds out about a problem two hours after the fact when the checker was standing directly beside the planter when they found it. Prices are fucked... 10-12cents for shitty raw ground. It hasn't rained in a month, so planting is tough with the ground being super hard and baked. No screefing allowed whatsoever, which has led to open hole issues in long grass and stick-mat, though I think we've mostly resolved those now. Lots of injuries around camp, mostly backs. Trees can't stay on the block overnight or we get fined. Checkers have thermometers and check the temp in the reefer, people's bags, and the caches often. Overall, not a contract I ever want to see again. PG's one big horror show.

[Captain Slashpile]

Seabass...are you still with blue collar?? Is this what we have to look forward to tommorow when our camp shows up....fuckfuckfuck.......stay in school kids

[Captain Slashpile]

Hey bcsis....email me your #. I lost it. I think I wanna be an irate pi-rate.

[Seabass]

Seabass...are you still with blue collar?? Is this what we have to look forward to tommorow when our camp shows up....fuckfuckfuck.......stay in school kids

Yeah man, still with Blue Collar... not planning on leaving any time soon. Just getting ready to leave PG for Williams Lake to party with you guys tonight.... are you guys re-joining our camp or keeping your own? I forgot to mention in the last post that camp is in a marsh... God help us if it ever rains. Make sure you guys are stocked up on bug dope, it's pretty bad on all the blocks.

[sylvan]

Very hot and dry in the Cranbrook, Invermere, Fernie regions that i've been planting. We are getting a penny less per tree this year but other than that the season is going well. It will be a shorter summer this year and there will be some lay-offs after the spring contract is completed for anyone new to the company. I am currently working an FFT contract myself. Everything from mounds to 8 inch screefs, sometimes both in the same piece. They are tough to work for but offer decent prices. Have a great summer everyone.

[Captain Slashpile]

Yeah Im sticking it out but with no guarantee on summer plant in quesnel Im snooping for july work. Nothing personal with company, just need to work as long as possible. I didnt go to the party, long story.

[backcountrysister]

Hey bcsis....email me your #. I lost it. I think I wanna be an irate pi-rate.

hey , I will MSn U tonight with my info!
let the games & finding booty begin!!grrr...

[backcountrysister]

Forgot to mention ..If its 6 degrees on the trees..watch the freak out ...OMG!! 6 degrees...OMG.. shut it down!!..Please! I ve seen how the these trees R packeed- the nursey doesnt care! But the FFT check may go into cardiac arrest!! have air transport ready!

[The_Bearslayer]

And I thought we had it bad on our contract in PG where we have to keep our caches elevated and boxes open like they're summer trees... checkers are super anal and will not talk to planters; only foremen and the supervisor. It makes life super annoying when the foreman finds out about a problem two hours after the fact when the checker was standing directly beside the planter when they found it. Prices are fucked... 10-12cents for shitty raw ground. It hasn't rained in a month, so planting is tough with the ground being super hard and baked. No screefing allowed whatsoever, which has led to open hole issues in long grass and stick-mat, though I think we've mostly resolved those now. Lots of injuries around camp, mostly backs. Trees can't stay on the block overnight or we get fined. Checkers have thermometers and check the temp in the reefer, people's bags, and the caches often. Overall, not a contract I ever want to see again. PG's one big horror show.

Why would you stay for those prices? I was with Blue Collar for one shift this season and half the crew was rookies in a year where it was supposed to be impossible to get a job, probably one day off in every three throughout the season was intended to be taken up by camp moves, and prices were low. I just can't understand why anyone with more than a year of experience would be working for a company like that.

[Richianity]

This would have been the perfect year to hire rookies....they don't know any better! Vets would just bitch about how shitty things are. Why would anyone hire a vet with more than 3 years experience?

[salbrecher]

This would have been the perfect year to hire rookies....they don't know any better! Vets would just bitch about how shitty things are. Why would anyone hire a vet with more than 3 years experience?

I assume you are talking interior planting and not coastal? Good luck planting a coastal contract with all rookies.

A crew of vets with 3+ years experience can reduce overhead costs significantly for a company and as a result make more money for planters and owners. Vets are more self sufficient and need less supervision and allow forepersons the time to recce, deal with logistics and get work done that would otherwise possibly have to be done by planters such as loading trees. Vets plant better trees and are better at dealing with difficult ground or specs and as a result may win more direct award contracts and get a higher price. Planting 4+ mixed species bagups each in a different medium or location would confound most rookies or even 2nd year planters. A good crew of solid vets will mostly only complain and bitch if something is not right that could or should be fixed. Bitching IMO is often justified in situations where something should or could be done differently that would improve a planters situation at no real cost to anyone (such as having more experienced forepersons/supervisors that could run a show in a much better way). How will someone be motivated to improve a situation or change if no one is telling them how it can be done better?

[Richianity]

I assume you are talking interior planting and not coastal? Good luck planting a coastal contract with all rookies.

Of course. Burnaby east probably represents 95% of planting in Canada (of course, JD will likely get upset with me as I am not quoting empirical evidence...please enlighten me).

There must be a cost/benefit to experience. From an employer's perspective, when does one think that the (minimal) increase in production get outweighed by things like BS when being told to replant/back talk for unloading the reefer/general entitlement etc?

My vote is 3 years (of course, as a generalization). Anything beyond that, and the bitch factor of vets probably tends to outweigh the benefit.

What do people think, from an employer's perspective, Burnaby east (of course), the perfect crew would consist of an average of 2.7 seasons of experience?

(As a personal note, I finally got the quote function to work!!....no I don't actually expect anyone to care )

[Captain Slashpile]

And I thought we had it bad on our contract in PG where we have to keep our caches elevated and boxes open like they're summer trees... checkers are super anal and will not talk to planters; only foremen and the supervisor. It makes life super annoying when the foreman finds out about a problem two hours after the fact when the checker was standing directly beside the planter when they found it. Prices are fucked... 10-12cents for shitty raw ground. It hasn't rained in a month, so planting is tough with the ground being super hard and baked. No screefing allowed whatsoever, which has led to open hole issues in long grass and stick-mat, though I think we've mostly resolved those now. Lots of injuries around camp, mostly backs. Trees can't stay on the block overnight or we get fined. Checkers have thermometers and check the temp in the reefer, people's bags, and the caches often. Overall, not a contract I ever want to see again. PG's one big horror show.

Why would you stay for those prices? I was with Blue Collar for one shift this season and half the crew was rookies in a year where it was supposed to be impossible to get a job, probably one day off in every three throughout the season was intended to be taken up by camp moves, and prices were low. I just can't understand why anyone with more than a year of experience would be working for a company like that.

I had external personal reasons for working with BC. I think if there were'nt some vets in camp, the rooks would have been taken to the cleaners even moreso than they already were. Its alright for a vet to work at place like this as they leave you the hell alone. I'm just wondering if most shows out there have major price drops. I knew this year would be a challenge and found BC to be a nice show to spend a couple months on. As for FFT....Ive had like 5 different checkers on my piece. Wierd. I just tell em the only land Ive planted was in that overgrown gully over there. Also, the FFT checkers arent allowed to give planters feedback on plots taken. How fucking retarded is that?? I planted under high voltage power lines on a rainy day and the fucking truck electrocuted me. I think I saw jesus. Nickelback came to our camp and we ran away. Screaming.

[Seabass]

With Blue Collar this season, at least 90% of the rookies were friends with their foreman before the season started... it's not so much that vets didn't want jobs as it is moreso that we had a turnover in foremen from last year and some of the new ones went with people they knew from home. We only had 1 rookie in my camp who didn't know at least 1 vet/foreman in camp before the season started. As for prices, we had great prices when we were in Williams Lake. PG is just a gongshow and I would prefer to never work there again. The problems I see with PG have nothing to do with Blue Collar as they do with Northern Aspect (the third party checking company) and the low prices created by too many companies underbidding each other on shitty contracts.

Jeremy, I don't agree with you that the rookies would've been taken to the cleaners if not for the vets. I don't know if you have met Mark Courtney or not, but he is a great guy to work for and treats his employees very fairly. He's been disappointed in this season as well, but really, with the amount of work that was available for this season and the # of low bids, it was one of those take what you can get years. That fill job that we did in Williams Lake, when you guys were with our camp for a few shifts at the start of the season, there were 4 companies with lower bids than us on that contract. All of them decided to take other jobs instead, which was fortunate for us as we saw some rather good prices on that. Dynamic was working the same contract and making considerably less per tree.

With the checkers, are you talking about FFT in Quesnel or the stuff you moved to in PG? It sounds like the Northern Aspect checkers...

This is only my second season with Blue Collar, but they are very fair to work for and will not take contracts if they don't think planters are going to be able to make a lot of money on them. FFT in Quesnel was a huge money maker for our camp last season, so it has been unfortunate to hear that your camp apparently hasn't fared as well as we did there. A lot of vets in our camp were disappointed when it was found out that you guys were going there and we weren't. I also have personal reasons for working with BC, but have been pretty happy with everything there outside of the PG stuff.

[jdtesluk]

I assume you are talking interior planting and not coastal? Good luck planting a coastal contract with all rookies.

Of course. Burnaby east probably represents 95% of planting in Canada (of course, JD will likely get upset with me as I am not quoting empirical evidence...please enlighten me).

There must be a cost/benefit to experience. From an employer's perspective, when does one think that the (minimal) increase in production get outweighed by things like BS when being told to replant/back talk for unloading the reefer/general entitlement etc?

My vote is 3 years (of course, as a generalization). Anything beyond that, and the bitch factor of vets probably tends to outweigh the benefit.

What do people think, from an employer's perspective, Burnaby east (of course), the perfect crew would consist of an average of 2.7 seasons of experience?

(As a personal note, I finally got the quote function to work!!....no I don't actually expect anyone to care )

Aaah Richy you're baiting me aren't you? I bite nonetheless.

I found that close to half of all planters in BC (based on survey of over 800) are from out of province, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean about Burnaby-East.

Anyways, to the main issue, about vets versus rookies. I really don't think vets bitch that much more than rookies. You find some extremely bitchy rookies that just don't realize the actual demands of the job. I really don't think that "bitchiness' is a deterrent factor for companies to hire vets. It's more likely that they simply can't attract enough quality vets--- which is a function of the job market. I talk to a LOT of company owners, I’m out in the field every week working with 10-20 companies a year. They universally crave vets over rookies.

To say that the increase in production is "minimal" is a bit off target in my opinion. If a good vet plants 20% more than an average greener, that actually works out to be a much bigger difference to the company’s bottom line. If the average worker costs $100 a day to insure, feed, transport, supervise, and administer, then the difference between someone who makes $150 and someone that makes 175 is actually a %50 increase in the production that matters (that portion that exceeds the $100 base cost to insure, transport, supervise etc....)

Rookies can be great investments IF they stick around for a few years. Most companies say that they need a rookie to stay for at least 3 years for it to be a good investment. There’s a lot that take off after one or two years, and many that don’t even make it through year one, then all that training etc goes out the window. This is a much bigger risk than worrying your vet might complain about emptying the reefer. Vets also tend to offer greater consistency, and the ability to handle a greater range of conditions and specifications based on sheer experience.

The bitching factor is simply not a credible decision factor in weighing vets versus rookies. I think that there’s only one person in here that perceives it that way, and that may be the product of the concentration of gnarled bitter vest on replant here. It certainly is an issue on an individual basis, as no one wants to hire bitchy complainy-pants whiners- but who’s more likely to be that way really, a someone that knows what they’re getting into or some kid that has never worked outside home and is used to having his/her laundry done for them by mom. Really it’s a bit of a moot argument, as the economic and vocational factors outweigh that of this theoretical bitch-factor. That being said, some companies may simply know that good vets will turn their nose up at their prices and therefore are forced to hire rookies our of job-market factors. So rookies or less experienced workers may be more attractive to SOME companies (I would suggest a very small part of the industry), but this is more a matter of the job market, not worries about bitchiness.

I apologize for the repetitive nature of this post, my ranting skills seem to have faded a bit.

[Richianity]

JD's back!

Please don't apologise, there's nothing like a good rant. Who needs TV when you have good discussion.

As a general proposition, yes employers don't want to have a bunch of greeners. I'm just asking if ringing up the years actually provides a benefit to the contractor (after a certain point). I think its fair to say that less experience means less demanding (and easier to ignore) and more willing to pitch in with some free work. I mean from the contractors POV, if the work is getting done and people are happy enough then what else could you ask for?

I'm not just picking on planting. Another job of mine, the powers that be always talk about 'training' and 'achieving my goals' but at the end of the day they don't really care because there will be someone else out there who is eager to please etc.

In general, there has to be a fine line for employers. Too experienced and you have to pay them too much and there will likely be more attitude (and you are less able to just ignore them). Too inexperienced and you have to spend too much on training.

I still think this would have been a good year to hire rookies...They (should) have low expectations anyways.

How's your season been? (I'm genuinely asking and not trying to be a dick, but with a name like mine it's hard sometimes)

[jdtesluk]

JD's back!


I still think this would have been a good year to hire rookies...They (should) have low expectations anyways.

)

That's definitely a good point! Once the market picks up again in few years, the rookies from 2009/2010/2011 will think they have found the promised land!
I think there is also some validity to your suggestion that the employers that depend primarily on super-vets do have to do a bit of upkeep with the expectations in order to keep them happy. But I think it is a cost they are generally willing to bear.

My season has been great. Now that I'm a certified auditor, (gave up the shovel for good last year) I can really see some of the changes occuring in the industry. So I say my season has been great because the companies I am going back to each year seem to be doing a better and better job of looking after the safety of their workers. We're talking incremental steps, but going in the right direction. For me, that is the bottom line.

[Scooter]

Once the market picks up again in few years, the rookies from 2009/2010/2011 will think they have found the promised land!

But will it? I'm not entirely convinced that it will turn around so quickly, if ever. With the value of the US dollar going down because of the massive amounts of money that the Fed is printing, the loonie goes up. That's not going to change for years, because of the deficits. A high loonie keeps the Canadian wood priced out-of-reach of American consumers who will buy cheaper US wood instead. I don't see a bright future on the horizon, unless we're talking ten or more years from now when the US has wiped out a good portion of their remaining forests.

[jdtesluk]

I may be proceeding on blind faith, but the general consensus among contractors in the WSCA and the ideas put forth by the MOF is that sowing requests and planting requirements will start to go back up in a few years. This may be as much a result of the beetle as it is the market, but the bottom line should equate to an increase in volume for planting. THis does not necessarily mean that the lumber market is great,...remember we had some perfectly decent planting years back when the softwood tariffs were kicking our asses. Certainly there is an effect on planting from these other factors, but really the silviculture costs are a small portion of the operating costs for the major licensees.

Perhaps so many contractors will fold up operations that there will simply be more trees for those that remain. I know of 2 contractors already that won't be coming back in 2010 (albeit one for reasons nothing to do with forestry).

[Mike D]

But will it? I'm not entirely convinced that it will turn around so quickly, if ever.

Ouch! Well we've seen the prices drop and bounce back up again many times in this industry. Boom, Bust and Echo, just like the housing market. If the prices and amount of available jobs don't increase in the next couple of years there won't be any Vets left and not too many Rookies will be entering the market.
This would be a good time for some reform in the way Tree Planting pricing is done. It'd be nice if the pricing became standardized so that we had more consistancy out there.
That being said if the industry doesn't ever pick up, I'll be relieved to know my 3 yr old daughter may never have the privelage to know what its like to be out on the block.

[Scooter]

I can tell you one problem that has been noticeably absent from my camp this summer: no mosquitoes.

I haven't been bitten yet this summer, and I haven't had to use bug spray. Strange.

[Tupperfan]

Didn't have time to read most replies, but my season's going well. My crew's production and quality has been amazing, highballing my camp and being way above projections and expectations. Great people, great attitude, I'm very happy. Management has been doing its job and the camp has been very safe.

Still three weeks to go in a fly-in camp for Northlands in Fort McMurray, did three weeks already, we're moving to our next camp tomorrow. Did a small contract for Alpac in the vicinity, saved money on heli (the block was closer to our camp than some of our Northlands blocks) so we got an extra few cents for the planters. Our first month with Weyerhaeuser in Grande Prairie went very well and I might be there aftwer Northlands for a few more shifts helping another camp to wrap. Work lined up in mid-August for planting reclaimed oil fields contracts for Syncrude and Suncor and I might have to fill a week or two with fire camp work (or, maybe, Qubec planting, but it's a little far for my taste, despite being from Montreal, the work lined up for me expecting me to come back out west...) so I'll still be busy for a while.

Had my first real days of rest in a cabin and I'm ready for the summer part of the season.

Hope all of you guys have a great and long season!

[Richianity]

But will it? I'm not entirely convinced that it will turn around so quickly, if ever. With the value of the US dollar going down because of the massive amounts of money that the Fed is printing, the loonie goes up. That's not going to change for years, because of the deficits. A high loonie keeps the Canadian wood priced out-of-reach of American consumers who will buy cheaper US wood instead. I don't see a bright future on the horizon, unless we're talking ten or more years from now when the US has wiped out a good portion of their remaining forests.

I agree with your analysis...barring an unforeseen miracle for the US housing market (which is still in decline), I doubt they will be buying a lot of our relatively more expensive wood in the next few years. We need to convince our new overlords (the Chinese) that Canadian wood is the best thing to use to build stuff.

I never thought I'd say it but I wish for a strong USA. We'll miss them as the hegemonic world power.