2010 season...what r u willing to work 4?

[Screefhead]

edit

[joe-eco]

Tree price is irrelevant, I've made close to $400 on 10c trees and also had blocks where it was hard to make much more $200/day on 20c trees.

Totally agree, 10 cents sounds shitty, but I'm sure that within many mills in bc and alberta decreased budgets have made way for a more cost effective way of planting. I would bet, based on my experience that a 10 cent tree are easier to plant these days, as oppose to 5,6,7 years ago. That being said, it blows, but if I can walk away with 300 bones each day, mission complete.

Somewhere on thi sboard I read a great response to a planter having trouble getting a good job on the coast. Besides my first season on the coast, I've been able to make 3 bills ever since, I'm average like the majority of us. The best way to find good companies, is calling mills... besides a reference, this is the best way. There's still alot of good companies out there.

I'd post some of the companies, but I don't think they would appreciate the extra calls...For the most part, these comp are no large that 20 planters...good luck..

oh and rookie mills can be a really fun way to end your summer...

[newforest]

I'm glad this thread is back on track for you folks. American mills are facing some of these same pressures, although they are not generally involved in planting, especially since IP and GP sold off their land base. The production species that dominates the industry in the US South-East, the Loblolly Pine, generally has a first-cut thinning done in the plantations in 13-15 years. Occasionally sooner on high-input fertilized plantations. In Brazil, the same species grows 365 days a year, never going dormant. They thin their plantations in only 3 years.

[barnbill]

posted this originally to wait and see how many posted about "i don't care cause i can make $300 @ 10 cents" etc etc...never mind the wear and tear on your body too do that day in and day out.........and never mind that you're at the top end of the scale....consider this, every time you brag to your friends, sit in a bar, post on this site, that you can make $300 a day planting trees even though we all know it's bullshit when it's averaged out over a season....all you are doing is creating an environment for prices to drop to 4 cents a tree...minimum wage....Happy Now?

[Scooter]

$300 per day for a 40 day season (which is what some companies are admitting to in BC this year) = $12,000. You do not put in enough hours to qualify for EI the rest of the year.

40 hrs per week @ $8.50 (or whatever your minimum wage is) x 52 weeks = $17,680 (or $18,387 with vacation pay). This is what you can make flipping burgers.

I agree, being vocal about how much you make has its ups and downs. Sure, it makes you feel like you're making a lot of money. And sure, if you can actually get a decent job for the other 9 months of the year, it's ok (although I see very few planters who can do this). But really, when the foresters are sitting in their offices arguing back and forth about prices with the company owners, is it in the planters' best interests to know that SOMETIMES planters can make that much money?

Don't forget about all the other things which bring your average down:
- Your rookie season.
- Snow days.
- Half days.
- Equipment costs.
- Travel costs.

If you're going to University for the rest of the year, then yes, this can be a decent job. But the University kids are less valuable to foresters because they only plant for a few years, then the experience leaves the workforce, with the vacated spot to be replaced by another rookie who steps in and kills several thousand trees while learning to plant. Not in the foresters' best interests.

Face it, with all the negatives factored in, a pretty small percentage of planters make more than $15,000 per year in the industry. If you can't find other work to subsidize this job during the off-season, it's not worth it. There have to be a few people making what APPEARS to be very good money, to keep the piece-rate system from imploding. Otherwise, soon, there will be unskilled people planting trees at hourly rates for minimum wage, and per-tree costs will actually increase for the foresters, just as quickly as seedling mortality increases.

Maybe I'm making this seem a bit drastic, but ultimately, foresters have to realize that they get what they pay for.

[barnbill]

thank you Scooter for replying in a concise and direct manner........most do not realize what is occurring

[TheHamsterizer]

posted this originally to wait and see how many posted about "i don't care cause i can make $300 @ 10 cents" etc etc...never mind the wear and tear on your body too do that day in and day out.........

I hear this argument a lot, but I don't think fast planting in easy ground will wear on your body as much as higher priced screefing land in okanagan type grass mat. I've suffered way more injuries planting 2000 at 18c than 3600 at 10c. But everyone is different of course.

[Screefhead]

edit

[Scooter]

I think you're missing the point a bit. I agree with you, that's a nice target number. I like to see any of my vets in their third+ season averaging around that - some a tiny bit better, some a tiny bit worse. For someone who has put in the time and has the skills, I truly believe and will go to bat arguing that they deserve that.

But the point is, talking about making $300 per day here needs to be put into context. Most foresters probably only make about $180 to $220 per day, as a guess. So when you have someone sitting at a table, negotiating direct awards with your boss, and they're sitting there looking at your boss, they might be thinking, "Hm, I make $200 per day and the planters on Replant say that they can often make $300 per day, and you're arguing with me about dropping the price by a couple cents so I can meet my budget?! Go fuck yourself. You're going to have to take a hit on the price this year, or I'll give the trees to someone else."

It happens. Especially these days. And when that happens, the planters' paycheques start to drop.

A lot of foresters DO read these message boards - I get TONS of direct emails from all levels of industry, from the planners to the loggers to the silvi managers to the site prep to the office staff. From owners, supervisors, foremen, planters, and wanna-be's.

I just get nervous when they read posts here and get the mistaken impression that everybody makes that kind of money. Yes, you SHOULD and you CAN make that kind of money if you are committed, motivated, and put the time in, and are working for a decent outfit on a normal contract. But it all has to be put into context. You say that you don't spend a lot when you're in the bush. I believe you, but you're an exception. Very few planters have the moral strength to spend their days off relaxing/sleeping in camp instead of hitting the bars and hotels. Many do OK at hitting the grocery stores on the day off and staying away from fast food, but not everybody.

I guess my point is that I don't begrudge you for admitting that kind of money is possible, and it NEEDS to be possible to keep the industry from completely collapsing and moving to an hourly-rate system. But for the foresters reading this, remember that there are other costs - the flight or bus trip to BC and the flight home at the end of the summer, a dozen nights in hotels, $25 per day for food (that's about par for camp costs, but the planters who eat fast foods or go to restaurants on days off still pay that much, and none of that is subsidized by the planting contractors), a few days without work at the start of the season, a couple days without work for every camp move, etc. Guys in the oil field usually get a huge per diem for food and lodging, but planters almost never do.

The biggest problem is the short season. I'd far rather earn $180 a day for 200 days per year than $300 per day for 40. And considering the dismal state that the industry is in right now, not a lot of planters are going to get the 60-70 day seasons that they were used to a couple years ago.

Honestly, the bigger thing that the foresters could do that might save the industry would be to spread the trees out. Do you think a 50% reduction in industry activity over the past two years is bad? No, because attrition and turnover take care of a lot of the people who want to move on. But the bigger problem than the lower prices and lower amount of overall work is that there is so much unused capacity in the nursery industry now that just about all of the trees are grown in the spring. Dropping from 200 million to 100 million trees admittedly sucks (these are random numbers based only roughly on BC public reforestation). But having almost all of those 100 million trees in the spring means a short season for just about everyone. If we could take that 100 million and spread them out to 65 million spring trees and 35 million summer trees, you might see higher retention of experience.

As it stands, I think the short season is going to pretty much drive about 80% of the current vets out of the industry in the next two years. I guess it's a good thing that I can possibly retire soon, although to be honest, I don't really want to. At least the vets that do stick it out will be very highly positioned. But then again, does the industry need a bunch of third and fourth year planters in foreman/supervisory positions? Safety will possibly take a big hit, although it will probably be slightly offset by the fact that the younger planters in many instances are more safety-conscious than the entrenched 10-year vets.

Anyway, I apologize, I'm starting to rant. Avoidance of school assignments tends to do that to me.

Summary: $300 per day is a good base for the decent vets, and even somewhat higher is justifiable for the very top brackets. However, many planters do not earn nor deserve to earn that.

And remember that most of the people who post here frequently are among the cream of the crop in the industry.

[Hugo Pants]

Thanks for that post Scooter, very interesting!

I certainly hope that foresters don't just say '' well I make this much and planters want to make that much but it's more than I make so it has to be too much. '' Such a simplistic comparaison is pretty much just a fantasy and ignores reality.

I know foresters probably see themselves as on top of planters and in terms of their expertise and studies/training they certainly are, so seeing planters' daily averages higher than their's might make them wonder why planters are getting so much.

That being said, a forester should spend a few days planting and ask him or herself what kind of money is this work worth rather than looking at his or her own paycheques and assessing in such a detached way the value of a planter's day's work (while also keeping in mind the cumulative effects of this work).

Also, one has to factor in what Scooter said about length of season and other costs, whereas, I suppose, a forester has a more secured line of work.

[Scooter]

That being said, a forester should spend a few days planting and ask him or herself what kind of money is this work worth

Thankfully, some do.

[Coaster]

Fortunately very few foresters I've encountered are so narrow in their perspective that they begrudge planters making more per day than they do. They understand how demanding the work is and what a short season planters have. Unfortunately it is increasingly the accountants who dictate to the foresters which contractors get the contracts. Even though a forester may know that accepting a bid below a certain amount is not the right thing to do, they are forced to take the lowest bid by corporate policy. Having said that, there are still foresters out there "company men", who believe that it's a supply and demand market and as long as there are planters willing to work, then the lower the prices the better.

What U R willing to work 4 is still the determining factor that allows contractors who pay too little and/or too late to continue to exist.

[Scooter]

I completely agree re. the accountants' perspective.

contractors who pay ... too late

That's going to be a good opportunity for a theme rant, but after Christmas, once my personal life settles down.

[Coaster]

Warning – Avoid this Contract!!

As I’ve said in previous posts, it is the planters who must control low bidding by refusing to work for contractors who bid too low. Here is a prime example. It doesn’t get any more ridiculous than the price Khaira will be doing the BCTS Sunshine Coast contract for. This work is situated in the Powell River area and includes boats, lots of heli trees, cones and moving around. I posted the bid results on another thread “Summary of 2010 BC Public Bid Awards”. I’ll give a quick reprint of them here:

Khaira - $90,970
Rainforest - $128,927
Stephan - $135,618
Brinkman - $148150
Timberline - $151,104
Fieldstone - $154,663
Evergreen – $157,545
Osprey - $165,206
Impact - $165,579

Rainforest and Stephan’s bids were extremely aggressive but they know what they’re getting into. The companies who usually work in that area are Brinkman, Fieldstone, and the three highest bidders.

It is completely irresponsible of BCTS to award this work to Khaira. They are inviting a disaster. Either Khaira will have to bring in a crew of non-Canadians and pay them with EI weeks or they’ll bring in some vets and pay them peanuts. Stay away from this one. Both BCTS and Khaira need to learn a lesson. I’m personally very disappointed that BCTS didn’t show some discretion here. They have been losing money as an organization and are under heavy pressure from management to take the lowest bids. In this case it will be at the cost of the planters.

[MiddleAgeMayhem]

If you want to plant for free, just go work for Brinkman. That's a good start.

I had no problem making 250-350 a day in Alberta last summer. There were a few gong-show contracts in BC from what I heard, but many of my friends were also on well priced cream for months at a time. What exactly are you referring to?

Well, I like to joke around a lot, so don't look too hard for veracity in most of my posts. But I would say that for myself, if I was making $250 a day many days, and away from home and paying camp or hotel costs, I would not be happy and I would go do something else. As far as Brinkman goes, my only direct experience with them was many years ago, and it was a joke compared to the treeplanting environment I am fortunate enough to work in now. A rat crawled into one of our water barrels and died, and a bunch of people got sick, endless meetings, etc. Again, that was many years ago in a camp run by people who are not in the industry now. But hey, at least they trained me.

Often when planters say something like "I made $250 to $350 a day" they mean they averaged less than $300 if you look really closely at it, and may have hit $340 or $350 a few times. To me that is not a good wage if you know what you're doing and aren't a slug. BTW I've never planted in Alberta.

So mostly it was a joke about Brinkman and how shitty they were and probably still are. But many people work with Brinkman and like it, so more power to them. I just prefer smaller companies where I can speak to the owner if I need to and there's some sort of rapport. That way we can all bitch together about the prices. Ha ha.

[krahn]

I don't know (or care) how others calculate their money avg's, most of the #'s I see here on this forum i take with a grain of salt. But, I think any good planter should be able to avg $300/day with a good company. And that includes snow days, fuck around days, block finishing days ...etc.

i've been with a lot of companies over the years, and from my observations, any VERY good planter can average $300/day in a VERY good company. even planters that think they know their average very often do not, although you think it'd be easy with the final paycheque. i guess they don't count the part days. it usually means you need to make 350+ a day on full days, consistently. and sure in good companies there's a number of people that do that, but not just any vet. my two cents.

[Scooter]

it usually means you need to make 350+ a day on full days,

And any decent company shouldn't let you have very many days that aren't full. The best compliment that I ever got as a foreman was one day when I let the crew stop an hour early, at 4pm. One of the planters (possibly my best ever, once planted 6400 by 5:30pm in Alberta and hoped to stay until 8pm so he could hit 8000) looked at me and said, "in a year and a half, this is the first time we've ever had a part day."

Your crews and your camp should be flexible enough to route people around so people don't get screwed with part days except in very rare circumstances.

[krahn]

wow, well, nothing but full days would be amazing. my estimate of 350 is for most companies i've been with, not Northern my favorite which has less part days than most. i'm including days where you move around a lot finishing blocks. or you wait around for the chopper for an hour at the end after finishing earlier. there's tons of things that eat into your day, although more common than these is planters taking long smoke breaks or just relaxing towards the end of the day, which is perfectly normal some days you just need to back off a bit.

i'll believe a month with nothing but full days when i see it, that sounds like xanadu.

[Scooter]

Well, weather can throw a kink into plans. And ending a contract can too. But aside from those two reasons, you should be able to work the logistics to avoid part-days whenever possible. Other than those two things, then you're either working a contract where the logistics of the contract are restrictive enough to cause problems, or you're making mistakes in assigning land/blocks.

For contract-end days, I'll often assign just part of the camp to the planting so the ones who are planting get a decent day out of it. Then, to balance things out, the next time that happens, I'll do the same tactic but assign planting to the half or some of the portion that didn't plant on the previous wrap-up day.

And my foremen also "loan" and "borrow" planters quite a bit. Let's say that Joe and Jeff are foremen and each have 12 planters. Joe has enough ground on his block for a three-quarter day, and no other blocks in the area. Jeff has a block that won't be finished today. I'll either try to find a block somewhere that is suitable to hold three people for a full day and then Joe gives a truck to three responsible people to go do that block, while the other nine stay on the original block and get a full day to finish. Or if there is no suitable three-person block, then Jeff takes three of Joe's planters onto his big block for the day and looks after them. Moving down to a crew perspective, Joe tries to manage the details even more. For instance, if he thinks the block is going to be easy for nine people, he'll maybe move three or his fastest off the block and finish up with his "slow 9". Or if he's not entirely confident about the finish potential but doesn't want to move only two, he'll keep his fastest and only loan out his three slowest planters. The foremen will also look at the open pieces, layout of land remaining, planters' individual qualities, and a dozen other factors before deciding where to switch people around, to make things run most smoothly overall.

[krahn]

sounds like a good system.

one thing i liked a lot at wildwoods was that every day in my short end-of-season stint i got a fresh piece. even if i didn't finish the day before. although people usually sort of had a quota to fill, sometimes the block was too big to get finished, so they paid one or two people a very good dayrate to go and knock off the partial pieces, while the rest of us got a clean slate. fantastic.

[Screefhead]

iedit

[Scooter]

I did a couple of short stints for Natural Borders when they were part of Coast Range in around 1996/97, and on one of those, the first morning, we drove an hour or so to a block, spent twenty minutes getting organized, and got up to the pieces. The foreman had warned me that we needed to finish a block and then move on to another. Anyway, the process of "finishing the block" took the entire crew FIFTEEN MINUTES, so it was something like three or four bundles each. We then spent half an hour getting people back to the trucks and an hour driving to the next block.

I asked why it hadn't been finished the day before, and there was no explanation - I had assumed that maybe something really unlucky had happened, like they hadn't brought quite enough trees, but nothing out of the ordinary. I asked what time they had finished the previous day, and they said, "oh, the usual, right at 5pm." I was furious at the colossal waste of time. If it wasn't for the fact that this was my second stint with them, and the first one had gone alright, I would have left immediately.

Tree planting throws enough inefficiencies at you without creating unnecessary logistical problems of your own.

[Duncan]

That sounds a lot better than the system used at A+G. They would always send entire crews to the same block irregardless of its size . Depending on when you finished , everyone would either go to another block or go back to camp. Usually if it was much later than 1 pm you were done for the day.

A+G had really good prices that year , yet a lot of days $200 was about the max you could expect to make.

I would say most ways of organizing production in any company larger than one crew will always be dependent on the individuals running the show, the system described by Screefhead is not anything like what i saw, in fact the complete opposite with regards to organizing production but then again I'm not naive enough to think what I saw is the same at all the other crews and camps where I was not present.
And to think that having only a few half days over a season is not hard to imagine. A few years back I had a crew that had over 50 full days straight and only 2 real fuck around days during a 60 day season, not hard if you have a dependable crew and know how to judge land at the end of the day, use a calculator and a plot cord and have other people willing to give and take a planter or two here and there to make things work

the system scooter described is about the same system i've seen in any well managed camp, probably something that will be hard to come by soon especially after reading some of the posts by RPF, guess where that company cut costs, less checkers and management and it will probably show in fill planting costs in the years to come on any project involving multiple crews and large amounts of daily production. Especially in the ministry contracts or contracts involving helicopters or bad access as nobody seems to be doing much checking in some areas on either the contractor side or ministry side, cutting costs all around
and looking at some of the bids this year looks like that there will be some optimism for the future...
dibbles = jroots = fill plants, lotsa fill plants

[mcD]

Damn Duncan, you can still ramble! Screefhead, sounds like you got the shaft with us, thats to bad. it certainly doesn't work like that on the crews I work with. I guess the bottom line on what I'm willing to work for will really depend on what other sortd of opportunities I have. if your broke and don't have any other work available then it will be pretty cheap.

[backcountrysister]

SO, I had a experience with Khaira last year. He is Dewan's brother. They low balled the work in Monty lake. Planters were rookies making 13 cents - trenches & frozen ground. The rookies - for the most part didnt speak english nore have any proper work gear. The crew planted and had guys behind them yelling at them. Never scene anything like it.
anyway, I walked the area with the forester & flagged it off. I explained to the owner & foreman that the ground was frozen & it was flagged off. not to go past the flagging. they went pasted it and made a mess. had plugs sticking out by 2 cm.
The issue with this next contract is that this ground is super technical. You need experience. Its steep, slashy ground. It is not conducive for a rookie & some ppl with a couple yrs experience.
Anyway, Im with Coaster on this one : STAY AWAY!! Good luck!
Also want to point out that BCTS is so low on cash that they are removing adobe pro from their offices to save $$. not the best when you need all the info sent to you on bids- heard it at a viewing from a forester.

Warning – Avoid this Contract!!

As I’ve said in previous posts, it is the planters who must control low bidding by refusing to work for contractors who bid too low. Here is a prime example. It doesn’t get any more ridiculous than the price Khaira will be doing the BCTS Sunshine Coast contract for. This work is situated in the Powell River area and includes boats, lots of heli trees, cones and moving around. I posted the bid results on another thread “Summary of 2010 BC Public Bid Awards”. I’ll give a quick reprint of them here:

Khaira - $90,970
Rainforest - $128,927
Stephan - $135,618
Brinkman - $148150
Timberline - $151,104
Fieldstone - $154,663
Evergreen – $157,545
Osprey - $165,206
Impact - $165,579

Rainforest and Stephan’s bids were extremely aggressive but they know what they’re getting into. The companies who usually work in that area are Brinkman, Fieldstone, and the three highest bidders.

It is completely irresponsible of BCTS to award this work to Khaira. They are inviting a disaster. Either Khaira will have to bring in a crew of non-Canadians and pay them with EI weeks or they’ll bring in some vets and pay them peanuts. Stay away from this one. Both BCTS and Khaira need to learn a lesson. I’m personally very disappointed that BCTS didn’t show some discretion here. They have been losing money as an organization and are under heavy pressure from management to take the lowest bids. In this case it will be at the cost of the planters.

[Scooter]

Also want to point out that BCTS is so low on cash that they are removing adobe pro from their offices to save $$.

We used to wash and reuse the plastic shooter cups at my bar. Surely BCTS can take the staples out of tree boxes and bend them into the right shape to use as paperclips, to save some cash? Or the foresters could tent on the blocks once the contracts start, to save the fuel used driving back and forth to town? Or maybe even stop repainting their pickups from now on. I mean yes, they'll rust out and they'll slowly turn from a nice forest green to a reddish rust or gray color. But they could say it's an intentional theme, to bring attention to the similar shift in the color of the forests due to the pine beetle.

[mwainwright]

well no shit, that BCTS sunshine coast contract has been sent to hell in a handbasket. that used to be my early spring work with stephan, we've worked it for the last 4 or 5 seasons, ever since bill sinclair decided he was bored with making a mockery of reforestation in the region. i hope that wretchedly low bid is enough to bankrupt the vulture that runs khaira, thus rendering him an example to any other scumbags with aspirations of perpetuating the slave trade under the guise of canadian tree planting. shame on the foresters who allow this sort of thing, you definitely know better.

[muscleyskeleton]

There's a lot of different thoughts here... just a heads up.

I just don't understand the motivation behind a $90,000 bid from an owner's perspective. After paying the planters, the staff, overhead, taxes, what's left for him? It has to be peanuts even if the planters are making nothing! Why bother at all?

To echo some earlier remarks, my best day was $360. My worst? $-6 (after camp costs. It was an 8 hour day to start the season... don't think I didn't question my sanity). Let's just say I started a bit slow. I probably averaged somewhere around $170, maybe $180 for the season but to me it was worth it to get that rookie year out of the way. Next year I plan to improve on that average, but that doesn't mean that there aren't 50 other rooks down around $100, maybe hitting $150 on their best day. As Scooter said, it is primarily the cream of the crop that post here (I don't include myself, but I loves me some planting and message boards); who else would seek out a planting forum online? If you quit or made shit all and are never coming back you're not going online to talk about planting.

It's tough for me coming into this profession so recently and reading about the struggles you guys are having, while at the same time weighing my own ambition and goals for this field... I planted for 7.5 cents (Ontario) in some really bad prepped land. I knew it was low, but I decided that the only way out was to keep planting (to clarify I was mislead by a very shady graphic on the company website advertising the average price for the last few seasons to be around 9 cents... well sure, if you take the average of all the prices given those years... but that's another story). I'd like to say something like "I'd never plant for less than x", but then where am I going to plant? I want to head west, but my best chances for employment lie with the big companies, the very ones doing the undercutting. And for what? A shot at an elusive, local, well-paying coastal job? From the sounds of it those don't even exist, and certainly not for someone like me (from the East, just settled in Vancouver, no connections, etc.). Perhaps the answer is simply that tree-planting is not for me. From the point of view of a seasoned coastal planter that conclusion would make the most sense: it's probably better for me and better for the vets.

The more I've learned about this business, the more I wish I didn't know; yet I'm drawn even stronger towards it.

[mwainwright]

elusive, local, well-paying coastal jobs DO exist, even for someone like you. it might seem hard to believe, but there are still niches in this business that can provide one a decent living. the average planter will never even hear the names of some of the best companies in the business. its been said a million times before, but making calls, talking to people, making connections, word of mouth, and reputation are everything to a successful career in silviculture. something to think about for those who forget that there is a ladder worth climbing in this business. unless of course, you have a degree and end up with a real job.

[Scooter]

its been said a million times before, but making calls, talking to people, making connections, word of mouth, and reputation are everything to a successful career in silviculture.

That's your biggest clue ever. Use this board, but stay off the public threads.

[Timberjack]

elusive, local, well-paying coastal jobs DO exist, even for someone like you. it might seem hard to believe, but there are still niches in this business that can provide one a decent living. the average planter will never even hear the names of some of the best companies in the business. its been said a million times before, but making calls, talking to people, making connections, word of mouth, and reputation are everything to a successful career in silviculture. something to think about for those who forget that there is a ladder worth climbing in this business. unless of course, you have a degree and end up with a real job.

Your right,I know of alot of company"s working in the background .Nice contracts,no bitching good crews and making a good living!!!

[newforest]

The more I've learned about this business, the more I wish I didn't know; yet I'm drawn even stronger towards it.

another lifer is born

[Nate]

The more I've learned about this business, the more I wish I didn't know; yet I'm drawn even stronger towards it.

another lifer is born

you mean: "another lifer is shackled"

?