2012 Public Bid Results

Post by **Scooter** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:14 am

Coaster, do you know when these trees are being planted?

shawniganlaker · Post by **shawniganlaker** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:26 pm

I don't know that that's strange...Typical of companies like Coast Range and NGR taking work regardless of the volume they already have. Timberline can field local crews and is already in the area. With all the BC work NGR is holding they are pushing their luck !

Arrow is a tough job, hugely spread out with foresters who are serious about the work. All the other bidders on this job would field veteran crews. Perhaps NGR will as well...I wonder how much work they are committed to in AB ? Looks like a late spring.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:14 pm

Scooter wrote:Coaster, do you know when these trees are being planted?

This work would usually start around May 1st although in a light snow year perhaps some in late April. The elevations are bound to be varied enough that it will last into late June. You usually have to start with a smaller crew and build up as you go. It's a 3D world in the West Kootenays. Elevations usually range from 800-1600+ meters. Brinkman did this work last year and didn't renew the three year deal. They were grossly underbid and paid the price. If NGR underestimates the challenge with this one and fails to send a strong crew, they too will bleed cash.

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:11 pm

I have revised info on the Arrow job. Not a big change, but still worth noting.
1,223,070 trees.

43.6 - $532,371 Next Generation
43.6 - $532,888 Timberline
45.7 - $558,451 Evergreen
48.4 - $592,339 Greenpeaks
54.3 - $664,110 Fieldstone

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:26 pm

Scooter wrote:I have revised info on the Arrow job. Not a big change, but still worth noting.
1,223,070 trees.

43.6 - $532,371 Next Generation
43.6 - $532,888 Timberline
45.7 - $558,451 Evergreen
48.4 - $592,339 Greenpeaks
54.3 - $664,110 Fieldstone

With this job there is day-rate planting that doesn't show in the tree totals. Estimate 5-10% of the bid making the actual per tree price lower.

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:00 pm

Fair call. Interesting.

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:10 pm

Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca. It requires a 30X30 screef strictly enforced. We didn't want to subject our crews to that at our price or perhaps any price.

BCTS - Port McNeill
444,500 trees

68.5 - $304579 Bivouac
73.2 - $325610 Rainforest
97.2 - $431980 Brinkman
1.03 - $457487 Evergreen
1.12 - $496718 Fieldstone
1.18 - $523301 Zanzibar

Awarded to Bivouac. Yes half of the bids are above a dollar per tree! This job requires boats, barges, helicopters, landing craft, multiple inlet locations and will span several months. Bivouac will be praying for good weather this spring.

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:11 pm

Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca. It requires a 30X30 screef strictly enforced. We didn't want to subject our crews to that at our price or perhaps any price.

I will be looking for a few experienced planters for this job, if your interested send me a Msg for more info on our season.

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:28 pm

I would suggest football and rugby teams:)

kootenaywrx · Post by **kootenaywrx** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:29 pm

aaron wrote:
Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca. It requires a 30X30 screef strictly enforced. We didn't want to subject our crews to that at our price or perhaps any price.
I will be looking for a few experienced planters for this job, if your interested send me a Msg for more info on our season.

Humm can I bring my light brush saw with a ninja blade and screef 963,471 spots for 10 cents a screef, might have something there.

mcD · Post by **mcD** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:29 am

kootenaywrx wrote:
aaron wrote:
Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca. It requires a 30X30 screef strictly enforced. We didn't want to subject our crews to that at our price or perhaps any price.
I will be looking for a few experienced planters for this job, if your interested send me a Msg for more info on our season.

Humm can I bring my light brush saw with a ninja blade and screef 963,471 spots for 10 cents a screef, might have something there.

actually it is done with a chainsaw adaptation(powerscreefing), and your probably selling yourself short @ 10c or it would still be a popular thing to do.

Post by **Scooter** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:43 am

The powerscreefing implementation that McD just mentioned is the "Hawk Power Screefer."

Various attachments have been developed for use with brush and chain saws. Most create small scalped patches, somewhat below the general ground level. The chain saw mounted Hawk Scarifier can make small, mixed mounds as well as scarified patches. Penetration to mineral soil with brush saw attachments may be difficult when roots are concentrated near the soil surface.

The Hawk Power Screefer was invented by Bruce Hawkensen in the 1980's or possibly the late 1970's. Bruce was also an original owner at Tawa, and he started Folklore Contracting. I started working for Bruce when I moved to Folklore, although Bruce's son, Kurt, is now the owner at Folklore (along with his wife, Deanna Gleave).

If you go to this page, and move down to the very bottom called "7.10 Motormanual Scarification Attachments" you'll see some sketchy photos of them:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/publicatio ... ech-06.htm

I've also got a photo on my main site, of Bruce actually using one on one of our blocks east of Prince George. Unfortunately, it was taken about ten years ago, when I didn't have a good camera:

shawniganlaker · Post by **shawniganlaker** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:38 pm

Contract for Brushing/Girdling and Cone Maintenance South Island. 115 Ha Brush 100 Ha cone removal (Roughly).

1 Russell Malcolm, dba Ranger Silviculture 129,863.60
2 Osprey Silviculture Operations Ltd. 82,425.50
3 Strategic Forest Management Inc. 141,865.00
4 JMC Forest Maintenance (2005) Ltd. 102,871.00
5 Brinkman & Associates Reforestation 89,691.81
6 1 Russell Malcolm, dba Ranger 129,863.60
7 Three Tree Forestry Services Limited 90,500.00

RPF · Post by **RPF** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:35 am

Evergreen wrote:Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca...

Just curious how this works. Does this now mean that the three contractors who bid lower than Seneca will be disqualified from bidding on future work for BCTS Clearwater?

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:22 pm

The unofficial and off-the-record explanation that I got from one forester about the whole situation with dropping bids is that they realize that contractors have to put together a season that works for them. This particular forester said that if he believed that a company originally submitted their bid in good faith, and that events after the submission of the bid changed the situation so that it no longer made sense for the company to do the work, then he would simply take the bid deposit away and take no further action. This assesses a small financial penalty on the planting contractor, which makes up for the hassle for BCTS (although not necessarily the higher expense that BCTS will incur on getting the contract done). As far as disqualifying the contractor from bidding on future jobs, he said that's a clause written into the contracts "just in case" and BCTS would not necessarily enforce it. That would be assessed on a case-by-case basis, but in general, that's the "big stick" approach rather than the "carrot" approach, which they would prefer not to use unless they thought the contractor was putting in shotgun bids and just taking the plums. He also said that in a year in which the industry volume is expanding, it doesn't make sense for BCTS to go on a witch-hunt with this clause - there are better places to focus their energy, and they realize that planting contractors are dealing with a situation that is different than in the past few years, with more trees than the industry can easily handle.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:03 am

RPF wrote:
Evergreen wrote:Here's a couple of bids we were involved in that I haven't seen up here yet;

BCTS - Clearwater
953,471 trees

35.8 - $340979 Celtic
37.0 - $352842 Evergreen
41.7 - $398148 Coast Range
43.5 - $414389 Seneca
44.0 - $419601 Folklore
54.3 - $518125 Leader

This job has been awarded to #4 Seneca...
Just curious how this works. Does this now mean that the three contractors who bid lower than Seneca will be disqualified from bidding on future work for BCTS Clearwater?

This Clearwater job was one of the stranger BCTS tenders. It was a "private tender opening" (love that term, makes me think of something else). BCTS wouldn't post results until the contract was finally awarded weeks after the bids were opened. There was no bid deposit. I suppose they could have penalized Celtic for not taking it as they had first shot but as Scooter said, it's probably not in BCTS best interest. The fact that BCTS waited so long to offer it to the next two would likely mean that Evergreen and Coastrange had accepted other work and couldn't be expected to also take this job - hence no grounds to penalize them.

It's a strange format when millions of trees are being bid on all in a 2-3 week window. Contractors bid on far more than they could ever do as they obviously don't expect to get it all. In the odd circumstance where they get more than they can handle, they have to drop some of the work. BCTS would not have a legal leg to stand on if they tried to penalize a contractor who could demonstrate that they had received other work in the interim. I think most foresters understand this and aren't out to nail contractors unless they think there was evil intent like bid rigging or indiscriminate low balling.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Better Late than Never - here are some results that have just come to my attention - they aren't recent openings but pertain to 2012 work - they were just buried a little deeper than usual;

FFT Vanderhoof
Bid on 1,184,138 spring seedlings
Planting 866,000 seedlings
20-30% Heli/remote quad access
Awarded to Folklore
35.3 - $419,798.33 Folklore Contracting OUCH!
44.0 - $520,766.50 Apex Reforestation
46.2 - $547,316.19 Artisan Reforestation

FFT Prince George
Bid on 1,258,600 spring seedlings
Planting 1,000,000 seedlings
North/South/West of P.G.
Awarded to Folklore
36.7 - $462,152.29 Folklore Contracting
38.4 - $483,557.22 Artisan Reforestation
39.4 - $495,557.24 Celtic Reforestation
39.4 - $495,594.39 Dynamic Reforestation
39.4 - $495,682.79 Apex Reforestation
47.5 - $598,410.65 Spectrum Resource Group

FFT Dawson Creek
Bid on/planting 1,364,400 spring seedlings
Burn, 70% Heli/remote quad access
Awarded to Apex
46.9 - $640,800.70 Apex Reforestation
51.0 - $695,844.00 Next Generation
56.7 - $773,363.60 Dynamic Reforestation
74.6 - $1,018,388.16 Seneca Enterprises
80.0 - $1,091,406.00 Celtic Reforestation
86.1 - $1,174,727.90 Folklore Contracting

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF002
Bid on/planting 1,761,754 spring seedlings
Awarded to Next Generation
23.4 - $412,795.87 Next Generation
24.5 - $431,927.00 Spectrum Resource Group
26.6 - $468,584.00 Seneca Enterprises
26.6 - $469,286.70 Dewan
27.9 - $492,116.00 Celtic Reforestation
29.9 - $526,819.64 Dynamic Reforestation
29.9 - $527, 351.86 Folklore Contracting
32.7 - $576,227.68 Artisan Reforesatation
39.3 - $692,736.70 Apex Reforestation

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF003
Bid on/planting 2,063,505 spring seedlings
Awarded to Artisan Reforestation
28.5 - $588,774.00 Seneca Ent.
29.6 - $610,845.70 Dewan
31.4 - $648,662.64 Dynamic Reforestation
32.5 - $670,028.91 Celtic Reforestation
33.7 - $695,954.00 Spectrum Resouce Group
33.8 - $697,759.12 Artisan Reforestation
35.2 - $725,623.30 Next Generation
35.8 - $738,623.30 Folklore Reforestation
44.3 - $913,029.20 Apex Reforestation

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF004
Bid on/planting 367,570 summer seedlings
Awarded to Artisan Reforestation
26.9 - $98,701.96 Artisan Reforesatation
28.8 - $105,978.63 Apex Reforestation
29.6 - $108,747.00 Dewan
30.1 - $110,658.00 Spectrum Resource Group
32.0 - $117,727.00 Seneca Ent.
35.4 - $129,959.13 Celtic Reforestation
37.5 - $137,854.37 Dynamic Reforestation
38.3 - $140,843.65 Summit Reforestation

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:39 am

FFT Vanderhoof
Bid on 1,184,138 spring seedlings
Planting 866,000 seedlings
20-30% Heli/remote quad access
Awarded to Folklore
35.3 - $419,798.33 Folklore Contracting OUCH!
44.0 - $520,766.50 Apex Reforestation
46.2 - $547,316.19 Artisan Reforestation

If it helps any, their public BCTS bids last year in the PG/Vanderhoof area were 27-29 cents, so...that is a big bump.

Post by **Scooter** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:33 am

FFT Dawson Creek
Bid on/planting 1,364,400 spring seedlings
Burn, 70% Heli/remote quad access
Awarded to Apex
46.9 - $640,800.70 Apex Reforestation
51.0 - $695,844.00 Next Generation
56.7 - $773,363.60 Dynamic Reforestation
74.6 - $1,018,388.16 Seneca Enterprises
80.0 - $1,091,406.00 Celtic Reforestation
86.1 - $1,174,727.90 Folklore Contracting

I viewed this job. This is some crazy access. What a view from the top of the mountain though, you can probably see for about 120 kilometres. I don't know how the helicopters are going to get people to work every day in the 100 km/h winds on the top of that mountain some days though. Imagine planting in an old forest fire (burn of forest, not a young block), with the dead trees standing all around you (sort of like the burned patches you can see in the photo below). Now imagine a portion of that contract being on top of a mountain that is about two-thirds the height of the mountain that you can see in the photo below. I was actually standing several hundred meters under the block when I took this, although I was facing across the valley instead of up the hill towards the block. This will be a very interesting contract. If Apex loses a lot of production time due to helicopters not being able to fly to the top in the winds, they are going to get destroyed on their helicopter budget. Although from this bid price, I'm guessing they didn't include much of a helicopter budget. Mind you, there are a couple other bids here that we don't plan using a helicopter on that other companies appear to have bid a helicopter into the price.

IanMatthews · Post by **IanMatthews** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:02 pm

This was an intersting contract. Apex is going to lose their shirt. It should have been tendered as 2 contracts given the time of year and the minimum production demands will require 2 full camps. Tough to do at that time of year...

kootenaywrx · Post by **kootenaywrx** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:26 pm

Who's doing the d.t.a and d.t.f in this contract?

Post by **Scooter** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:23 am

At that price, I can only assume that they're doing it internally. Key phrase: "I assume."

The fallers will have to hike in and cut out approximately thirteen (my guess) heli clearings throughout the block, and on several of those, build landing pads due to the slope. There is a question, as the wood is still standing, if stumpage fees might come into play because of the large number of trees that will have to be cut. This work alone would probably take a pair of good fallers over two weeks. They're going to have to hike a few kilometres uphill for many of the pads, and of course, they'll have to start slightly before the planters do, to stay ahead and make things easy. Well, they could start concurrently and have the planters creaming out the roadside stuff while they start cutting, but that doesn't make any sense. With the wind factor at the top of the hill, they'll want to leave the roadside access for days when they can't fly.

As for the rest of the block, it's a bit of a crapshoot. I've taken the Danger Tree Assessor course myself, and the block is a nightmare. How do you really assess danger trees properly in a burn. There are shades of grey - it would be very easy to take out far too few trees (because it's easier) but then what happens when WCB comes in for an inspection. Or you could take out too many, but then you really rack up the falling expenses, and possibly get back to the stumpage question.

The smart thing would be to have a pair or two of fallers on site, working ahead of the planters all the time, going through and cutting out a dozen or so trees per hectare. Then, make sure that there is a DTA ticket for every six workers, so the DTA person (presumably a foreman) can go through and ribbon out danger trees that the fallers have missed.

But this is just one way that I considered doing it, and I don't have a lot of experience in working these kinds of burns. I might be overestimating the difficulty of meeting regs, but I also might be underestimating.

The helicopter budget risk is the big problem, because of the financial aspects. But the DTA uncertainty is the confusing part of the job.

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:37 pm

Scooter wrote: How do you really assess danger trees properly in a burn.

There are two different danger tree assessing courses, one especially for wildfires and one for silviculture, I could imagine they are using the wildfire one?

Post by **Scooter** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:50 pm

I'm not sure. I took the silviculture one. I was under the assumption that the wildfire course was designed more for people fighting fires as they happened. Once the fire cools, I'm not sure which course is applicable, or what the differences are.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:46 pm

The whole concept of DTA outside of fallers and city parks I find pretty comical. If you want a good laugh pick a random wildfire crew boss and watch him or her danger tree "assess" the hectares of burn they've been assigned.

Been a few years, but isn't there something for widespread danger areas/burns where you can essentially say "these 10 hectares are fucked" and everyone gets a warning about the whole area? Sort of a "we're fucked here danger tree wise, but we need to get the job done, so head's up everyone" deal? I remember when I was taking the course that it reminded me of the logic TDG employs when it permits carriers to slap a "danger" placard for multiple hazardous materials they're carrying instead of the individual placards.

Firefighter 1: "This trailer is on fire carrying dangerous goods."
Firefighter 2: "What chemical?"
Firefighter 1: "Dunno, must be multiple, as there's a 'Danger' placard."
Firefighter 2: "Thanks TDG, that helps us out."

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:02 pm

Nate wrote: Sort of a "we're fucked here danger tree wise, but we need to get the job done, so head's up everyone" deal?

Sounds like the work should be refused, the beauty of firefighting is you will get paid while you wait by the side of the road for fallers to clean it up. The activity you are doing in the area depends also, a simple patrol will not require more than a heads up, but other things like mop up, or heavy machinery use may require the area to be felled first.

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:10 pm

BCTS Sunshine Coast, Planting, Cone Installation and Maintenance.

Rainforest Silviculture Services Ltd. 446,785.64
Stephan Contracting 427,097.64
Fieldstone Resources Ltd. 450,125.20
Leader Silviculture Ltd. 443,781.32
Brinkman & Associates Reforestation Ltd. 370,482.77

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:04 pm

whitepickup wrote:BCTS Sunshine Coast, Planting, Cone Installation and Maintenance.

Rainforest Silviculture Services Ltd. 446,785.64
Stephan Contracting 427,097.64
Fieldstone Resources Ltd. 450,125.20
Leader Silviculture Ltd. 443,781.32
Brinkman & Associates Reforestation Ltd. 370,482.77

oh well

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:09 pm

i guess we know who not to work for

b-dawg · Post by **b-dawg** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:27 am

BCTS Super Save Special---available now!

***15-20% discounts across the board. Limited time offer. Don't miss out on the BCTS Special! Tender Now!!***
(contracts sold-out separately. baditudes not included.)

Pandion · Post by **Pandion** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:29 am

i guess we know who not to work for

Unfortunately these guys have done as much as anyone to lower prices in the industry. A job well done by a so called industry leader.

b-dawg · Post by **b-dawg** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:18 pm

Alright. As the hiring season is in full-swing, and the WSCA Conference just around the corner---I thought it would be useful to take a look at a portrait of the 2012 Season.

I'm no Mathema-genuis or Techno-mo-logicalist, so these numbers are subject to error. These stats aren't meant to be exactly accurate, just more of a rough portrait of the Public Bidding Results across the Province. It paints a pretty damning picture of the grim reality that's going on in 2012--a year with an up-tick in Volume that was supposed to see prices come up.....

I've compiled all of the Public Bids for Treeplanting that have been listed in this Thread to be able to see who the biggest Lowballers are, and to show who's left what on the table.
Any Stats analysts out there may want to take some of these numbers and run with it.....

I've grouped all of the BCTS contracts together (with a couple MOF and a couple unspecified contracts in there as well), and then all of the FFT contracts together.

I'll post the Totals first, and those will be followed in the next post by a list of the numbers for each Contract (Amount left on the Table. Average of all Bids. And then the Amount below the Average of each Bid). Keep in mind that the 'Average of all Bids' and the 'Amount below the Average' are dragged down by the 'Biggest Loser' Bid, so if those Lowball Bids were compared to the Average of all of the OTHER Bids, the numbers would be even more embarrassing.

Anyway,
Cue the drum-roll.......

TOTAL AMOUNT LEFT ON THE TABLE IN THE 2012 BCTS SUPER-SAVE SPECIAL: $1,034,667

And your 2012 BCTS Lowballer Crown goes to................. Folklore! Here's the breakdown:

Folklore: $156,226 (on 3 contracts)
Dynamic: $147,014 (on 2 contracts)
Next Generation: $129,432 (on 5 contracts)
Coast Range: $105,363 (on 4 contracts)
Spectrum: $101,295
Windfirm: $86,421
Evergreen: $84,187 (on 2 contracts)
Brinkman: $56,615
Summit: $49,347
Artisan: $35,141 (on 2 contracts)
Fieldstone: $25,498 (on 2 contracts)
Bivouac: $21,031
Seneca: $18,914 (on 3 contracts)
AKD: $18,183
------------------------------------------

$1,034,667

TOTAL AMOUNT LEFT ON THE TABLE IN THE 2012 FFT DISCOUNT SPECIAL: $220,612

And your 2012 FFT Lowballer Crown goes to............ Folklore! Here's the breakdown:

Folklore: ($122,373 on 2 contracts)
Apex: ($55,044)
A&G: ($43,195)
-------------------------------------------

$220,612

TOTAL DISPOSED DOLLARS IN PLAIN PUBLIC VIEW: 1,255,279

These numbers are staggering. F*#@ing atrocious. These companies have provided y'all with tens of thousands (some cases hundreds of thousands) of reasons NOT to work for them. Folklore alone pissed away more than a quarter of a million dollars. WHAAAA?!?!?!?

Let's hope there's still time for these Companies to do the responsible thing and start dropping the Bids so that these numbers aren't so Ludicrous.

b-dawg · Post by **b-dawg** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:22 pm

Here's the full details for all you geeks that want to look into it further. Notice that even when there is not much money left on the table, those Bids are still usually several tens-of-thousands-of-dollars below the Average Bid. I've put an ** where it was specified that the Lowballer was NOT awarded the contract.

The INSANITY needs to STOP.

BCTS Vanderhoof:
(Summit: $49,347 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $302, 297. Amount below Average: $97,060)

BCTS Burns Lake Results:
(Windfirm: $86,421 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $909,695. Amount below Average: $264,138)

BCTS - Vernon - Columbia Zone - 451,621 trees
(Next Generation: $6833 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $213,042. Amount below Average: $32,394)

BCTS - Vernon - Spring 2012
North
**Awarded to #4 Coast Range (Bid Deposit technicality).**
(Coast Range: $28,109 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $327,109. Amount below Average: $22,455)

South
(Seneca: $6399 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $284,121. Amount below Average: $34,038)

BCTS Wiiliams Lake
East - 1.18 million
(Fieldstone: $330 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $478,727. Amount below Average: $37,588)

West - 1.5 million
(Next Generation: $66,815 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $564,019. Amount below Average: $98,762)

BCTS - Prince George
PL13TGC002
(Folklore: $105,103 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $834,200. Amount below Average: $166,166)

McKenzie - Spring & Summer 2012 Planting Bids
PL13TGE001
(Dynamic: $105,064 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $709,402. Amount below Average: $115,816)

MOF Prince George, contract PL13TGC003.
(Spectrum: $101,295 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $911,643. Amount below Average: $194,484)

Houston, contract PL13TAH001
(Dynamic: $41,950 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $618,594. Amount below Average: $98,428)

BCTS - Quesnel PL13TLE003
(Seneca: $7303 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $392,463. Amount below Average: $77,103)

BCTS - Quesnel
PL13TLH004
(AKD: $18,183 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $281,997. Amount below Average: $68,930)

BCTS - Kamloops
PL13TED001
(Coast Range: $29,126 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $278,078. Amount below Average: $57,697)

BCTS Kootenay Lake
(Fieldstone: $25,168 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $331,803. Amount below Average: $21,241)

BCTS Merritt, Contract xx001
(Coast Range: $1,279 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $417,794. Amount below Average: $95,255)

BCTS Quesnel
PL13TLE005
(Folklore: $23,175 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $536,672. Amount below Average: $120,994)

MOF Kamloops
(Evergreen: $19,273 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $402,526. Amount below Average: $52,008)

BCTS - East Kootenays
PL113TFH001
(Next Generation: $36,135 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $456,264. Amount below Average: $34,226)

BCTS - Boundary
PL13TFF001
(Evergreen: $64,914 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $661,000. Amount below Average: $44,221)

BCTS Merritt
PL13TEF002
(Coast Range: $46,849 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $286,064. Amount below Average: $70,364)

Kamloops, contract PL13TED002
(Folklore: $27,948 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $338,961. Amount below Average: $25,535)

BCTS - Arrow
PL13TFG001
(Next Generation: $517 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $576,032. Amount below Average: $43,661)

BCTS - Clearwater
**Awarded to #4 Seneca (Requires strict 30x30 Screef)**
(Seneca: $5212 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $407,347. Amount Above Average: $7042)

BCTS - Port McNeill
(Bivouac: $21,031 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $423,279. Amount below Average: $118,700)

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF002
(Next Generation: $19,132 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $510,871. Amount below Average: $98,076)

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF003
**Awarded to #6 Artisan**
(Artisan: $27,864 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $698,811. Amount below Average: $1,052)

BCTS Fort St. James
PL13TJF004
(Artisan: $7,277 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $118,808. Amount below Average: $20,107)

BCTS Sunshine Coast, Planting, Cone Installation and Maintenance.
(Brinkman: $56,615 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $427,654. Amount below Average: $57,172)

FFT Tyaughton Fire.
Trees: 1,149,600
PL13DCS101
(A&G: $43,195 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $601,022. Amount below Average: $154,702)

FFT Vanderhoof
(Folklore: $100,968 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $495,960. Amount below Average: $76,162)

FFT Prince George
(Folklore: $21,405 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $505,159. Amount below Average: $43,007)

FFT Dawson Creek
(Apex: $55,044 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $899,088. Amount below Average: $258,288)

FCC · Post by **FCC** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:03 pm

good stuff. yes just do the math. like b dawg says, you don't need to be a mathamagician.

Post by **Scooter** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:50 pm

Good summary, but unfortunately, there is one very major inherent flaw with all of your stats.

You didn't account for dropped bids.

If a company came $50,000 below the next company, and didn't take the bid because of the results, then it might not be completely accurate to rely on those numbers. We'd need to find out who actually ACCEPTED each bid to get a better picture.

Some of the bids that were listed in this thread as being "awarded to XXX" have actually moved up the line to different companies.

b-dawg · Post by **b-dawg** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:45 pm

yeah, I did mention that I put an ** beside any Bid where it was previously specified that the Job was awarded to someone other than the Low Bid.

Anyone with info on any of these Bids that we're awarded to a Company that wasn't the Low Bid, or where the Lowballer did not Accept and it was moved up the List, please edit my mistake(s) or at least point-out any errors.

If any of y'all are interested in exact numbers (down to the last cent) then by all means fly at 'er. I've kind of exhausted my patience for number crunching for a bit, but I welcome any and all corrections---that's what this is about, helping each other stay informed and getting down to the heart of the matter. We are the most collectively educated workforce there is afterall.

Instead of dancing around the issue, maybe the Worker's Panel could just ask the Contractors point-blank at the Conference:

Folklore, have you dropped any of the Bids where you left 100,000 dollars on the table, or have you accepted?
Dynamic, have you dropped either of the Bids where you left a total 147,000 dollars on the table, or have you accepted?
Windfirm, have you dropped that Bid where you left 86 LARGE on the table, or have you accepted?
Spectrum have you dropped that Bid where you left 100,000 dollars on the table, or have you accepted?
etc. etc. etc.

Then maybe those who've accepted Lowball Bids, and are responsible for the price slashing would be so kind as to help the Labour understand why they are doing this.....?

Post by **Scooter** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:16 pm

Sorry, I missed the asterisks. But there are other bids that have gone up the chain, that haven't been noted by anyone here. More bids have been dropped than some people realize.

I'll see if I can post some more info here that would be useful for evaluating this stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad to see this sort of analysis. But I also know that there are other less tangible factors that should also be considered in combination with B-Dawg's numerical analysis.

I try to separate my position as the Replant administrator from any information that I've gotten as "inside information" while working for any contractors (such as Folklore). Therefore, I won't post any confidential info that I haven't been able to get from other outside sources. However, I'll see if I can get permission from the Folklore office to share some "inside info" that I would normally keep to myself.

Give me 24 hours.

Tnalp · Post by **Tnalp** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:23 pm

hey Bdog it seems that evergreen and bivouac are lowballers. would you recommend to definitely stay away from these companies that are dragging the industry into the shitter?

Angkorwat · Post by **Angkorwat** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:30 pm

B-dawg,your averages don't really reflect things.Sometimes you are required to bid on a contract just to keep your foot in the door the following year (otherwise you could be off the bid list the next) or you would be willing to take a contract but is not top priority so one throws in a very large bid,not expecting to get it.Its not an F.U. bid to piss off a forester or forestry company(which can and does happen).Its just that you would probably have to set up a whole new crew(as your season is pretty much set up) or if that contract pays that well,you have to drop another and loose some money in the process.The highest bid or two on many of these contracts is rarely realistic and many owners know this...but its done..and good that it is.If you've been involved in this process you'll see how as the planting season gets closer and the odd contract comes up near the end of bidding you'll see some huge bids come out there from companies who already have a full season. I'd drop the highest bid off all your averages and the odd second one too.
But..I agree there has been plenty of pathetic low ones out there..again..this year. but i be hard pressed to fault companies like the Bivi's,Flintstones,zanzi's or Rainforests.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:50 pm

Bid totals are like looking at a baseball player's RBI totals to gauge offensive effectiveness. It's useful to an extent, but you can't read too much into it.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:14 pm

Tnalp wrote:hey Bdog it seems that evergreen and bivouac are lowballers. would you recommend to definitely stay away from these companies that are dragging the industry into the shitter?

i sure would. there are better places to work.

jamisnewsham · Post by **jamisnewsham** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:37 am

Tnalp wrote:hey Bdog it seems that evergreen and bivouac are lowballers. would you recommend to definitely stay away from these companies that are dragging the industry into the shitter?

yes....!

whitepickup · Post by **whitepickup** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:34 pm

PL13TBH001 Chinook (Chilliwack, Hope, Squamish, Pemberton)

Approx 950,000 trees + some Plantskydd and cone maintenance/removal.

Fieldstone $577,028.20

Zanzibar $687,427.83

Leader $694,871.06

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:54 am

B-Dawg - thanks for all the work crunching or should I say crushing the numbers. I knew an old forester who used to swear by the adage that " Figures don't lie, but liars figure".

Your analysis of the numbers leaves much to be desired - like a less biased conclusion. Although in some cases an apparently very low bid relative to the next is just that - a very low bid. In other cases it isn't. Two examples which bear this out happened to us within the last year.

Last spring BD Silviculture left only $800 to us in 2nd place for the BCTS Boundary contract worth $176,000. BD couldn't finish the job, provide 1st aid coverage or pay their people on time and were paying substantially lower than we did when we came in and finished the work. This year's bid at Boundary averages 38.7 cents. We left $65,000 on a $617,000 job to the 2nd bid. Last year's bid averaged 36.4 cents. There were 3 bidders for the 2012 work and 6 for 2011.

Last fall Fieldstone underbid us by $62,000 on a fall coast contract. There were only the two bids and we were looking for a peach. By all reports, planters did very well and everyone was happy. Between this contract and the Chilliwack bid in the last posting Fieldstone has left $172,000 to the 2nd bidder. By your logic, this means Fieldstone is a "low baller" not worth working for. On the contrary, as you're likely aware, they are quite the reverse.

The two contracts you have for us in your list are 2 of the 14 planting contracts we have for 2012. I appreciate you putting the numbers together but your conclusions are far too simplified.

Evergreen · Post by **Evergreen** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:33 am

Tnalp wrote:hey Bdog it seems that evergreen and bivouac are lowballers. would you recommend to definitely stay away from these companies that are dragging the industry into the shitter?

I love quoting you planT backwards. Here are a couple more quotes;

Dec. 25 post
I was getting ornery... yup.. mighty riled up! Anyway, what got me in a state of excitability was apparent rhetorical double standards. Sure don't like it when someone whines about low prices when they are "involved"

Or...

Jan. 1 post
I am a "contractor" insofar as I get the odd job and hire some old time friends and a few newer guys every now and then.

Pretty shitty tactic slagging your direct competition in a public forum. You figure Bdog is an authority on who to work for? Isn't Bdog the owner of BD Silviculture now defunct, notorious low baller and also competitor of Evergreen and Bivouac? I'd imagine he'd council not to work for anyone who pays their planters every two weeks.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:20 am

Evergreen wrote: Isn't Bdog the owner of BD Silviculture now defunct, notorious low baller and also competitor of Evergreen and Bivouac?

i think you might have that one wrong... but i certainly agree with the rest of your post.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:26 am

and its always worth noting that its not necessarily what you bid that counts, but more what you pay out.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:54 pm

BCTS - Campbell River - 265,000 trees + 10,000 cones

$113,084 Osprey
$113,720 Evergreen
$128,960 Fieldstone
$138,933 Brinkman
$167,480 Zanzibar
$172,850 Timberline
$180,380 Stephan

It's impossible to determine the per tree bid price on this one as there are cones and fert in the picture.

Coaster · Post by **Coaster** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:34 pm

Here's to Bdawg for posting some analysis of the 2012 public bids. Both Scooter and I had promised to do this so thanks! I am in the process of trying to make sense of all of the numbers. I think comparing them to 2011 will yield perhaps the most interesting results. I'm about 1/2 way to having that done. Bdawgs numbers are looking very accurate for 2012.

It is very difficult to draw too many conclusions from comparing bids to each other. As stated by other posters, there are numerous factors that affect contractor's bids on any given project. They might be filled up for that time period, it might be the only slot they need to fill, they might have an inside track or a local crew, they might be able to pay more to the planter than their competitor, they might own a boat or a reefer, they might have done the job the year before and know the ground that much better and so on.

I intend to put the numbers out here in a spreadsheet format so that anyone can have a look and draw their own conclusions. Coming soon.....

So far for 2012 I have results for bids on 43,973,374 public trees. $1,338,000 was left on the table between the low and second bidders. that equals 3 cents per tree. If 1/2 of that would have gone to the planter, that's $669,000 in wages lost. The average low bid per tree so far is 31.9 cents. That's somewhat meaningless unless we can establish what it was last year. Of course last year maybe there was more prep, or more forest fires or less trees on the coast or....you get the picture.

Screefhead · Post by **Screefhead** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:37 pm

I agree the statistical analysis of the awarded contracts is somewhat misleading but it was a good summary nonetheless.
And it is obvious Folklore was the worst bidder as evidenced by these 2 results:
FFT Vanderhoof
Bid on 1,184,138 spring seedlings
Planting 866,000 seedlings
20-30% Heli/remote quad access
Awarded to Folklore
35.3 - $419,798.33 Folklore Contracting OUCH!
44.0 - $520,766.50 Apex Reforestation
46.2 - $547,316.19 Artisan Reforestation

BCTS - Prince George
PL13TGC002
(Folklore: $105,103 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $834,200. Amount below Average: $166,166)

Windfirm as usual had a particularly brutal bid
BCTS Burns Lake Results:
(Windfirm: $86,421 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $909,695. Amount below Average: $264,138)

NGR was driving down prices everywhere but left a lot of money here:
West - 1.5 million
(Next Generation: $66,815 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $564,019. Amount below Average: $98,762)

And why is Dynamic escaping criticism for this dud:
McKenzie - Spring & Summer 2012 Planting Bids
PL13TGE001
(Dynamic: $105,064 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $709,402. Amount below Average: $115,816)

And finally the one that started it all Summit- who left behind the greatest percentage of money on a single bid
BCTS Vanderhoof:
(Summit: $49,347 below next Bid. Average of all Bids: $302, 297. Amount below Average: $97,060)