I'm a rookie considering going out tree planting (assuming I can still even find a job)
The biggest issue on my mind is back health. I don't have back problems and would very much like to keep it that way.
Watching videos, everyone bends over to plant. Does anyone squat?
Squatting seems a hell of a lot healthier on the lower back. Why isn't it the standard practice?
Cheers
Squatting instead of bending
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Squatting takes too long and is very hard to make good money doing.
I would suggest positioning your bags so that when you are standing the weight is on your hips, then when you bend over it goes on your back. (tight on the hips loose shoulder straps)
The distribution of weight will aid in keeping you healthy.
I would suggest positioning your bags so that when you are standing the weight is on your hips, then when you bend over it goes on your back. (tight on the hips loose shoulder straps)
The distribution of weight will aid in keeping you healthy.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Why do you think no one squats to plant a tree?
I know people who have back issues and they say planting actually helps their backs. You will want to bend over to plant, but with a slight bend at the knees. Make sure your back and hamstrings are strong and flexible before you start your season. The one thing you should definitely avoid is staying bent over as you move between trees that always seems to result in back problems for folks.
I know people who have back issues and they say planting actually helps their backs. You will want to bend over to plant, but with a slight bend at the knees. Make sure your back and hamstrings are strong and flexible before you start your season. The one thing you should definitely avoid is staying bent over as you move between trees that always seems to result in back problems for folks.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Legit question, and one that's never been asked. Some good responses already.
Backs CAN suffer from planting, but they suffer in an asymmetrical fashion. As others have pointed out, squatting is not efficient. It also requires you to squat-press your load up and down with each tree, thus increasing workload on your legs (and your back). Squatting may seem like a good idea, but the majority of people I see doing squats in the gym are doing them wrong. Moreover, in a planting application, it puts you in a poor position to see and manage the tree going into the hole.
So if not squat, what to do.
First, don't bag heavy. Don't ever bag heavy or brag about bagging heavy, or let your foreperson see you as a heavy-bagger. That will only destine you for the long skinny pieces of land with bad access. That's truth.
Second, try to learn to plant ambidextrous. Many advise it, few carry through and do it. Planters worry that ambi-planting slows down the learning process...., and it does to some extent. However, that difference will disappear with time, and you may actually find that your overall coordination and balance improve (outside planting) by doing this. Certainly, some people can adapt to this faster than others, as some are simply more gifted and coordinated with both HANDS. Ambi planting will help balance the demands placed not only on your hands, but also your back and legs, and hips.
HANDS- I capitalized this for a reason. When people think of ambi-planting, they always focus on the hands. I don't think it is just about the hands. It may not even be MOSTLY about the hands. When it comes to your back and your core, and protecting this from future injury or imbalance, what you do with your HANDS almost seems irrelevant compared to what you do with your FEET! Think about it.....the most powerful move in the planting motion is your push-off. That is when you push off from one spot to the next, and when you rise up from a spot. Even if you continued using committed hands for shovel and tree, you could help better distribute the forces and demands upon your body by mixing it up with your feet, and pushing off with alternating feet as much as possible.
When I see ambi-planters move through a piece, they move like a bear. Their stance seems powerful and balanced. When I see non-ambi planters move, they often look like they're surfing. Their lead shovel side is nearly dragging their floppy dopey tree side through the piece. It's like they're on a wave and continually reaching or pointing to the end of their board and trying to remain balanced. Certainly this has implications for the back, hips, and body core.
Backs CAN suffer from planting, but they suffer in an asymmetrical fashion. As others have pointed out, squatting is not efficient. It also requires you to squat-press your load up and down with each tree, thus increasing workload on your legs (and your back). Squatting may seem like a good idea, but the majority of people I see doing squats in the gym are doing them wrong. Moreover, in a planting application, it puts you in a poor position to see and manage the tree going into the hole.
So if not squat, what to do.
First, don't bag heavy. Don't ever bag heavy or brag about bagging heavy, or let your foreperson see you as a heavy-bagger. That will only destine you for the long skinny pieces of land with bad access. That's truth.
Second, try to learn to plant ambidextrous. Many advise it, few carry through and do it. Planters worry that ambi-planting slows down the learning process...., and it does to some extent. However, that difference will disappear with time, and you may actually find that your overall coordination and balance improve (outside planting) by doing this. Certainly, some people can adapt to this faster than others, as some are simply more gifted and coordinated with both HANDS. Ambi planting will help balance the demands placed not only on your hands, but also your back and legs, and hips.
HANDS- I capitalized this for a reason. When people think of ambi-planting, they always focus on the hands. I don't think it is just about the hands. It may not even be MOSTLY about the hands. When it comes to your back and your core, and protecting this from future injury or imbalance, what you do with your HANDS almost seems irrelevant compared to what you do with your FEET! Think about it.....the most powerful move in the planting motion is your push-off. That is when you push off from one spot to the next, and when you rise up from a spot. Even if you continued using committed hands for shovel and tree, you could help better distribute the forces and demands upon your body by mixing it up with your feet, and pushing off with alternating feet as much as possible.
When I see ambi-planters move through a piece, they move like a bear. Their stance seems powerful and balanced. When I see non-ambi planters move, they often look like they're surfing. Their lead shovel side is nearly dragging their floppy dopey tree side through the piece. It's like they're on a wave and continually reaching or pointing to the end of their board and trying to remain balanced. Certainly this has implications for the back, hips, and body core.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Thank you!
This answers my question very well.
This answers my question very well.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
This has to be the funniest rookie question I've seen posted yet! I'm glad he asked it here and not one of the FB forums. Best of luck on your rookie season, ankhmor. You will be tested, but you will come out alive... In a few pieces, but alive.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Although planting ambi has it's merits, it has drawbacks as well. There is a thread here somewhere that you should look at. I find the best way to reduce wrist injuries is to offset the handle about 60 degrees from the blade which an ambi planter cannot do. Having the blade and shovel parallel, puts your hand and wrist in a terrible position. Learning to plant is challenging enough without trying to learn to do it ambi, so unless you have a natural ability to do it, I think it would add another level of frustration for a rookie.
I've worked with a few ambi planters and haven't noticed this marked difference in the way they move compared to righties or lefties, but there are undoubtedly benefits to both the core and limbs that come from switching it up. Ambi planters tend to do a few bundles from one side then a few from the other side so they are not constantly switching shovel hands and the ones I've watched move similarly to their one handed couterparts, but spread the wear and tear out more evenly. They probably have a more balanced body in terms of right and left but planting is not a particularly natural motion so I would guess there will be other imbalances that ambi planters must deal with.
I work with what would be considered an old crew of planters and they tend to be better off physically than my non planting friends FWIW. That could be because only particularly robust folks can plant for 20 plus years, and these people would have been in good health regardless of what they did, or it could be that planting for six months/year is better for you than sitting at a desk all day. I know my back prefers planting to office work.
I've worked with a few ambi planters and haven't noticed this marked difference in the way they move compared to righties or lefties, but there are undoubtedly benefits to both the core and limbs that come from switching it up. Ambi planters tend to do a few bundles from one side then a few from the other side so they are not constantly switching shovel hands and the ones I've watched move similarly to their one handed couterparts, but spread the wear and tear out more evenly. They probably have a more balanced body in terms of right and left but planting is not a particularly natural motion so I would guess there will be other imbalances that ambi planters must deal with.
I work with what would be considered an old crew of planters and they tend to be better off physically than my non planting friends FWIW. That could be because only particularly robust folks can plant for 20 plus years, and these people would have been in good health regardless of what they did, or it could be that planting for six months/year is better for you than sitting at a desk all day. I know my back prefers planting to office work.
Last edited by TripleS on Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
Good point about the shovel offset. However, I found 60 degrees to be far to drastic for my own liking. I think I went with a twist of around 20-25 at most.
One could readily switch hands per bag up and use two shovels if they really wanted to exploit both hands, and I have heard of a few planters doing this.
You make a valid point about the learning challenge, and I think that reiterates this as a production issue, and indeed some people take to ambi easier than others.
Of course, my main point was to suggest that ambi-FEET needs to be considered, not just hands. This includes some of the footwork between trees, which I see becomes particularly robotic in some of the high production land.
I think there's no argument that planters seem like a more robust lot than regular folks. Same goes for farmers, and most people that work outside. I would suggest it's more nurture than nature, with may be a bit of self-selection...that is people with lower physical limits tend to avoid planting. What would be interesting would be a longitudinal study of planters to look at the specific types of musculoskeletal issues they carry later in life. There is so much focus on compensating for injuries and imbalances in season, and season to season....but so what? Life is long! I suggest planters would benefit most (in the long run) if we better understood the longer-term physical impacts of planting, and designed training and maintenance programs around compensating the specific joint and muscle issues that are most likely to occur over time.
One could readily switch hands per bag up and use two shovels if they really wanted to exploit both hands, and I have heard of a few planters doing this.
You make a valid point about the learning challenge, and I think that reiterates this as a production issue, and indeed some people take to ambi easier than others.
Of course, my main point was to suggest that ambi-FEET needs to be considered, not just hands. This includes some of the footwork between trees, which I see becomes particularly robotic in some of the high production land.
I think there's no argument that planters seem like a more robust lot than regular folks. Same goes for farmers, and most people that work outside. I would suggest it's more nurture than nature, with may be a bit of self-selection...that is people with lower physical limits tend to avoid planting. What would be interesting would be a longitudinal study of planters to look at the specific types of musculoskeletal issues they carry later in life. There is so much focus on compensating for injuries and imbalances in season, and season to season....but so what? Life is long! I suggest planters would benefit most (in the long run) if we better understood the longer-term physical impacts of planting, and designed training and maintenance programs around compensating the specific joint and muscle issues that are most likely to occur over time.
Re: Squatting instead of bending
45 degree offset was a game changer for me late in my planting career.
"First, don't bag heavy. Don't ever bag heavy or brag about bagging heavy, or let your foreperson see you as a heavy-bagger. That will only destine you for the long skinny pieces of land with bad access. That's truth."
So truth.
"First, don't bag heavy. Don't ever bag heavy or brag about bagging heavy, or let your foreperson see you as a heavy-bagger. That will only destine you for the long skinny pieces of land with bad access. That's truth."
So truth.
All of my company reviews and experience (The Planting Company, Windfirm, ELF, Folklore, Dynamic, Timberline, Eric Boyd, Wagner, Little Smokey, Leader, plus my lists for summer work and coastal) can be found at the start of the Folklore review due to URL and character limits.
Folklore, 2011: http://tinyurl.com/anl6mkd
Folklore, 2011: http://tinyurl.com/anl6mkd
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Re: Squatting instead of bending
I started planting ambi from the beginning, and haven't bring me nothing but joy, you don't need to change trees from right bag to left, balanced muscles and posture, you can rest one side of the body while not having to stop planting, among many other benefits. It overall made me a better planter, II found it that you should always try to plant in one direction though facing the trees not the other way. TripleS remarks are true but that can be easily overcome by using 2 shovels like others suggested, having a loose handle, having a shovel with a pin, or even having a symmetric shovel, so you can use both sides, that one is a bot more complicated though given you would need to prefabricate you own blade. nonetheless my point is that is very easy to overcome.
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