looking for Spring coastal work

[Maxim]

Hello there, I've planted the spring/summer interior for 8 seasons now and have done two coastal fall plants. I am currently looking for a Spring Coastal contract to work. I already have interior work lined up this season but haven't fully committed yet so if your company would require me to do your interior season as well I would certainly consider that an option. I'm comfortable with any heli or boat work. I've also done some slash pile burning and foremaning. Any leads would be great. Cheers!

-Max
-Maximbusse@gmail.com

[Pandion]

Don't do it, the island is wretched these days.

[Gingerplanter]

Don't do it, the island is wretched these days.

I think that might be an uneducated assumption. Just avoid the big dirties.

[Pandion]

I think that might be an uneducated assumption. Just avoid the big dirties.

Maybe timberline, nootka or bivouac could be worth your time, good luck with that though. One of sitka's contracts is supposed to be decent, the other not so much. Zbar, fieldstone, hawkeye and evergreen, are pretty sad these days. Impact might be ok, although there was that barge incident last year and I heard that was them. Brinkman, osprey and any of the interior companies doing a coastal show should be avoided. Maybe you could enlighten us as to where the good work on the island is. My standards could be a little higher than yours, but crew averages well under 3bills with average experience of 10 years plus is terrible if you ask me.

[Gingerplanter]

I think that might be an uneducated assumption. Just avoid the big dirties.

Maybe timberline, nootka or bivouac could be worth your time, good luck with that though. One of sitka's contracts is supposed to be decent, the other not so much. Zbar, fieldstone, hawkeye and evergreen, are pretty sad these days. Impact might be ok, although there was that barge incident last year and I heard that was them. Brinkman, osprey and any of the interior companies doing a coastal show should be avoided. Maybe you could enlighten us as to where the good work on the island is. My standards could be a little higher than yours, but crew averages well under 3bills with average experience of 10 years plus is terrible if you ask me.

timberline, rainforest, nootka and sitka. I know personally that crew averages for Sitka are close to $400/day in the spring. Not too many openings though. PM me if you want to know more.

[oldplanterdude]

I know personally that crew averages for Sitka are close to $400/day in the spring.

Not on one contract they weren't. I think you know about the divide.

[Pandion]

timberline, rainforest, nootka and sitka. I know personally that crew averages for Sitka are close to $400/day in the spring. Not too many openings though. PM me if you want to know more.

Thanks, but I know Paul well have something far more lucrative to do.
To the OP, you'll have to pay your dues on a lowballed contract to work the coast, that's just the way it is. After several seasons doing that, you might be able to get on on with one of the few decent coastal companies that remain if you meet the right people and make a good impression.

[shawniganlaker]

Timberline took over 2 million .31-.32 cent bid trees with ITL so that might not be great but you might get on...Their North Island work is fantastic but you wont get on there. Zanzibar has Fuck all as usual. Wagner apparently is back to .16 cents but would probably take you, But those trees should be .18 cents...at least. A&G are scumming it up at South Island but that was a disaster last year.

Fieldstone, Evergreen, Bivy, Sitka, Nootka and Integrity all have solid remote work and some lower priced town work. Any of them can provide a full coastal season. Sitka's Western work is good, IT not so much. Avoid Brinkman.

Best bet as a coast rookie: Wagner, A&G, Brinkman...Lets hope Osprey isn't an option

[Scooter]

Timberline took over 2 million .31-.32 cent bid trees with ITL so that might not be great but you might get on...Their North Island work is fantastic but you wont get on there. Zanzibar has Fuck all as usual. Wagner apparently is back to .16 cents but would probably take you, But those trees should be .18 cents...at least. A&G are scumming it up at South Island but that was a disaster last year.

Fieldstone, Evergreen, Bivy, Sitka, Nootka and Integrity all have solid remote work and some lower priced town work. Any of them can provide a full coastal season. Sitka's Western work is good, IT not so much. Avoid Brinkman.

Best bet as a coast rookie: Wagner, A&G, Brinkman...Lets hope Osprey isn't an option

What will it take to get the industry back to what it was? Can that ever happen? Back to prices of fifteen or twenty years ago (or at least pre-2007)?

[Tnalp]

No Scooter it can't happen... Sorry!

[Rainman]

No Scooter it can't happen... Sorry!

I think it could happen quite quickly if experienced planters refused to work for sub-par wages, especially on the tougher jobs. Good planters hold more bargaining power than they realize. The easy jobs (drive to on the island) may be tougher to make come around, but anything with a higher level of complexity would improve drastically if planters walked away when they aren't making the wages they should be.

[Tnalp]

Sorry can"t see it happening!
Not saying that in theory it would be impossible to achieve, just saying it won't happen.

[Rainman]

I just heard of a whole Osprey crew that quit at once last year. Haven't seen any stupid bids from them this year.

Like I said earlier the planters hold more bargaining chips than they realize.

[Nate]

As someone who's never worked the coast I've always been curious about wages.

In BC, the median hourly wage for a professionally accredited land surveyor is about $30/hour. It seems the average coastal vet would be making about this amount, if not more, even today on the average contracts (excluding the Osprey type low outliers and the Rainforest type high outliers).

People seem to think coastal planters "should" make more than this. Is this "should" based upon what people used to make in past or based upon what they feel their skill is worth in the open market given the seasonal nature of the job and so on?

I have no opinion not understanding the coastal work scene, just curious if it's more of "this is what we used to make so this is what we should make" argument or "this is what are skills are worth" argument.

[Pandion]

In BC, the median hourly wage for a professionally accredited land surveyor is about $30/hour. It seems the average coastal vet would be making about this amount, if not more, even today on the average contracts (excluding the Osprey type low outliers and the Rainforest type high outliers).

I would say people are averaging 225-250 bucks a day on a typical Coastal shit show these days, for 11 hours. Throw in camp costs and you're left with just over 2 bills. I hope you would think you should make more than that.

[Nate]

In BC, the median hourly wage for a professionally accredited land surveyor is about $30/hour. It seems the average coastal vet would be making about this amount, if not more, even today on the average contracts (excluding the Osprey type low outliers and the Rainforest type high outliers).

I would say people are averaging 225-250 bucks a day on a typical Coastal shit show these days, for 11 hours. Throw in camp costs and you're left with just over 2 bills. I hope you would think you should make more than that.

One could make the argument that if the planting is technical enough then it's higher skilled work than land surveying in the sense of available qualified people to perform the work. I don't have a sense of how the skill level for the best coastal planters differs from interior planters in terms of contract specs and what the availability of quality coastal planters is this day compared to the number of contracts that necessitate certain levels of experience.

As I said before, I have no opinion period, not having worked the coast and only heard things second hand. It's like hoe operators, you can find hoe operators working for $20/hour on some jobs because the skill level is low, and up to $60/hour where they're doing tricky trenching around buried facilities and in tight spaces where they need to do finishing work.

[ryguy]

Pandion, 250/day? I stay on mostly the same contracts, year after year, but that sounds pretty low for an average, especially for such a long day. I don't get around much, so I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I'd be surprised.

[Scooter]

what the availability of quality coastal planters is this day compared to the number of contracts that necessitate certain levels of experience.

My feeling is that there are far too many Interior planters who are trying for coastal jobs, and it's just driving the coastal prices down. Unfortunately, on average, I feel that it's easier to make money nowadays on most Interior jobs than on most coastal jobs. There are exceptions, of course.

But I guess that's inevitable when you look at basic economics, and supply/demand of labour. The WSCA estimated about 6600 people plant trees in BC each year, if I remember the number correctly. If that's the case, that's over six thousand Interior planters, plus a few hundred coastal planters. There are far more than a few hundred planters competing for those coastal spots, hence the reason prices are being driven down. Especially on open-market bids in areas close to towns, where planters can live and work from their homes.

As for experience needed, it really varies widely. There are jobs where any planter with a couple years in the Interior can figure things out in days. And there are jobs where it takes a few seasons to really understand how to plant well. I've planted on the coast almost every spring and fall for the last five years (plus a couple short contracts quite a few years ago), and it wasn't really until last year that I started feeling comfortable, like I really understood how to approach the ground properly. And I'm still learning.

Also, there's a disconnect between the cost of working on the coast versus the cost of working in the Interior, which nobody really ever talks about much. In my mind, you have to make about $20 more per day on the coast just to "break even" compared to living in a camp, because of the costs of food and motels. I'll try to give a quick example. I'll compare an Interior planter in a camp where they eat in town on days off (ie. not remote access) and for the coastal planter, I'll assume it's someone who can't work out of their home and has to work out of a motel. I'll also assume that each company is doing 3+1's for shifts.

Interior:
Planter will pay three days of camp costs at usually $25/day, and on the fourth day, let's assume $20 for food in town. Total cost: $95 in four days, or about $23.75 per day for the season.

Coastal:
Planter will pay four days of camp costs (motel charge) at say $25/day, because you still stay in the motel and pay costs on days off. Also $20/day for food. Total cost: $180 in four days, or about $45.00 per day for the season.

That $20/day for food I think is quite reasonable. It's based on several seasons where I tracked my exact food costs for the season, based on eating decently from grocery stores (ie. not just beans and rice) but avoiding restaurants.

So when you look at the fact that it costs more to work on the coast, and the work is more dangerous if you're on a moderately hard block (slopes/slash), and the weather is generally a lot more miserable, then daily earnings on the coast SHOULD be a lot more than in the Interior. But in many cases, they're not.

There are still some coastal contracts out there that are quite nice, as mentioned earlier in this thread. There are still a few where you can earn more than you can in the Interior. But there are a lot of weak jobs. Far more weak ones than there should be, considering the work. That's based a little bit on my own experience, but mostly from having a couple dozen coastal planters at approximately eight different companies sharing numbers with me over the past two years. Pandion's number of $250 doesn't surprise me based on what I've heard about certain contracts at many of these companies this year and last year. I can morally accept an average of $250/day for a summer student with one year of previous experience planting in the Interior. But that should be unacceptable for a vet on the coast with six or eight years, even if it is a slightly shorter day.

[Nate]

Interesting, thanks Scooter.

[jdtesluk]

I recall the total number of planters being much lower. That 6600 figure may includes all silviculture workers, not just planters.

I would argue against the labour supply being the reason for the wage declines. The deterioration of the coast, IMHO, is more about decline of the cut on the coast, and the behavior of the contractors. Yes, willing planters enable shitty bids, but the bid comes first.

The base price on the coast 20 years ago was 25 cents. Now it's under 20, and everything else in the world is twice as expensive. Anyone that planted across both eras is certainly shaking their head and thinking WTF happened. Well, the coastal industry fell apart, volume went down, competition for bids went up as more companies suffering in the interior (or increase their share of the pie) led to more contractors looking to stretch their season over a wider season and trying their luck on the coast. There have also been a few specific bad actors who have individually cooperated with bottom-line driven foresters to drive prices down. I place more blame on the guilty contractors than the foresters in this respect, because if contractors held the line, prices on the coast would still be high. It's not like they would have stopped replanting. Silviculture is such a small speck in the budget of forestry companies, that they would have continued to pay 25 cents and up if that's what the contractor market demanded. Just my opinion. However, it's not like contractors are evil. Some of them are more cut-throat than others to be sure, but they are all forced to compete in the same game, and the actions of the worst have an impact even on the best.

So, yes, planters could take a stand, but the impetus for such action is only expressed after prolonged declines in earnings.

The economic analysis done by the WSCA really provides no insight here, as the study was not specific to the coast. However, it is fair to say that the gross decline of prices on the coast is far worse than the price conditions in interior. The advent of f-layer in the interior really changed the game in many places, while f-layer was par for the course on the coast in many areas for a long time. So we have tree prices declining by up to 40% in some areas, with all things in life becoming more than twice as expensive over the same period. Good planters now have to slam in 2000 in some coast blocks to make decent money. Those kind of numbers used to be insane on the coast, now they are common.

Quality specs have remained as stringent as ever, and in my experience even tighter as the competition for contracts is so high. All together, the conditions of coastal planter labour have turned to absolute crap for the most part. Even worse is the fact that those affected by the coast decline are the most dedicated core of the industry. These are largely people that rely on planting to live, or to support their families. Interior planter include far more students and young people that can always go home, or are in the midst of finding their way through life. Many coastal planters already have an established life, and they face much more serious hardship when their earnings decline by a quarter while everything else is going up.

These conditions really bother me, even as a mere observer now. What can change it? Well mass labour revolt may work. Half the contractors retiring would probably have an impact, although there are always more waiting to pop up.

How about higher minimum wage requirements for the coast? The employment standards legislation treats all planting as the same, when in reality the coast is a very different game, given the seasons, geography, and specs. One could argue that much of the interior is just as hard, but the extended season aspect truly distinguishes coast from interior. I'd like to see guaranteed wages to coastal planters based on a minimum of 20$ per hour for the first 10 hours, and then $30 for the next two, and $40 for each hour after that. That would at least weed out companies running on skinflint margins, with workers barely scraping by, and effectively raise the bidding floor.

Waddayareckon?

[Scooter]

Half the contractors retiring would probably have an impact,

The problem is that when those contractors retire, they want something out of their company. They rarely just say, "Ok, I'm done, let's fold up, nothing left to see here." They want to sell their company name and try to squeeze some equity out of the company. So along comes a coastal supervisor or someone who is gung-ho to throw their shingle out for the world to see. And often, who is more willing to dive lower to get work. There aren't enough contractors who are willing to say, "Ok, I'm not bidding that low, I'll just wait this year out." They lose "their workforce."

a minimum of 20$ per hour for the first 10 hours

The problem is that a metric like that is the great equalizer, ie. it has the less obvious danger of potentially lowering prices on the few contracts that still pay higher, as contractors would say, "Hm, my competitors are all getting people to work for $200/day."


I guess the problem in a market-driven system is that eventually, prices stabilize at a level where the supply and demand meet. Foresters want to pay as low as possible (in general). So the prices end up at the level which is the approximate lowest level where existing workers are willing to work. Jordan, you argued that labour supply isn't the reason for the wage decline. What you said makes sense, but I think the labour supply ultimately will become the determining factor where prices will balance in the long term, even if it wasn't what initiated the decline. Too bad Yuri wasn't here to throw his combined economic/coastal analysis into the ring.

[jdtesluk]

I agree about the problem with contractors quitting. Like I said, more pop up.

As to the wage thing, I don't see the danger you perceive. On the good contracts, with good companies, the contractor's success rests on the seasoned vets being motivated to produce high numbers each day. He/she already knows that people are working for $200 in other locations. The bottom-feeders, on the other hand, are forced to either raise their bids, or pay-up out of of pocket to top up wages when workers fail to meet the threshold for a minimum wage on the coast.

We all know that there is some shady bullsh** with companies not topping up wages as per regulation. I won't go into the enforcement issue here.

I really don't think that market equilibrium will rule here. I think there are chaotic forces at work across an uneven landscape. Some foresters are willing to pay for quality, and will retain good companies with stable products. Others care only about nickel and dime-ing, and kissing the butthole of the company CEO by saving an extra $50k by stealing it from the workers by retaining marginal contractors. Khaira- perfect example- just a different butthole being kissed. You can have just one douche-bag underbidder, drop their pants to do an ultra-hard job at a simply unfathomable bid price, just hoping to get their foot in the door, and now you have a dangerous new precedent.

I won't argue that labour won't have a role. I just don't think it will be a predictable effect. If anything, I see labour playing a lesser role given the current conditions of the job market and the limited options for planters. Wouldn't be surprised to see a big return of ex-planters from Alberta looking to get back on the shovel after their spot in the patch dried up.

That being said, labour has the greatest potential to change the industry, and correct the problems on the coast. That is, if the coastal planters collectively drew a line in the sand, there would be a correction of the coastal prices in a hurry. Not much chance of the industry finding a replacement workforce to do that job in short notice. Of course, we all know the story of labour organization, and how problematic that is. Perhaps a coastal labour group would have more potential and sticking power than one that tries to organize all workers. I mean, the coastal planting workforce is a tighter group, and newcomers seem to have to knock on doors to get an in. If someone wanted to actually make a move and organize the coastal planters, they'd have a lot less ground to cover, and fewer circles to penetrate. I mean, with only a few dozen contracts to deal with, and the miracles of modern computer technology (which CREWS lacked), rounding up the troops is actually a feasible project.

Just to be clear. I'm not advocating for labour revolt, or calling for a strike. I am merely pointing out that the conditions and characteristics of the coastal planting workforce are distinct from those of the wider (interior) workforce. Many of the features of the interior workforce (student, transient, uncommitted) are the same features that have confounded labour organization in the past (CREWS etc..). These are merely observations. I really don't see some unorganized magical labour market equilibrium exerting an effect without an actual formal labour body to organize and direct it. Chaos has reigned and will continue to reign, until some new force is added to the mix- be it legislation, be it a labour group, or a sudden and highly dramatic upturn in the economy.

[Tnalp]

I am convinced that many workers accept conditions, mostly low tree prices, out of short term necessity despite the knowledge that they are enabling a self perpetuating relative worsening of said conditions. This reality, along with various other reasons for accepting low prices such as not knowing better etc, is an important element that contractors use to secure work. The worst companies probably build business models around this fact and the rest try to keep up somehow.
The fragmentation and expanse of the industry and the workplace will probably never allow for any concerted efforts on the part of planters to effect meaningfull changes.
I remember planting for Steve Allen well over 20 years ago when the Island prices were just starting their downward pressure. I can't see such a well established trend reverse course in any significant way.
Hats off to all the career planters that have to bear the brunt of this sorry state of affairs.

[PlantinTaders]

What will it take to get the industry back to what it was? Can that ever happen? Back to prices of fifteen or twenty years ago (or at least pre-2007)?

It will take your primary employer taking labour laws seriously and paying all employees for each hour of work put in. This includes planting, driving on and off days, camp moves/setups/teardowns. Respect established labour laws, have fair and competitive prices and play fair. If this company and its peers can get up to this basic level and just maintain, things could start looking up everywhere.

I'm not trying to single you or Folklore out, I have enormous respect for your creating and operating this site and forum, and I had an overwhelmingly positive experience planting at Folklore. I do however think Folklore is a leading contractor within its tier, and very much follows suit with some of the worst. The BRINKMANship needs to stop. The Dirks have pushed bids to or past the point of being unsustainable, and the Deanna and Kurts have been guilty by association. Folklore is no more guilty than a dozen other companies, and won't turn everything around overnight by bidding higher and actually following regulation, but if they are the leader they claim to be they can make an impact and start leading by example

None of the different planting regions and contractors operate in a vacuum. If contracts are low bid up North it spills down and hurts prices down South. If people's earnings are lower there it puts higher strain on coastal contracts as more planters need to plant longer to make enough.

So can it happen? I'm inclined to agree with Tnalp on this, barring one possibility.

At the risk of drawing venom from anti union "planters" who have spent their past half-decade in the industry as management and never planted a coastal tree, I'm going to point out that a tree planter's union or association is one of the only potential factors that could restore, preserve and protect the value of tree planting labour.

Having been interested in the concept of unionization or representation from the beginning of my short planting career, I've had many discussions with planters of different backgrounds, experience levels and geographic areas. I realize there is strong opposition to the idea at various levels for various reasons. I don't however feel this precludes the possibility of this working. I find many of the most vocal opponents of representation are often primarily or partially invested in a management or contractor position. The same people strangely enshrine the values of personal earning freedom and piecework as being core to the planting experience and threatened by the concept of worker representation, which I don't even think is a realistic danger. I think its alot easier to be romantic about these notions when you are not the one gleaning your income from the trees that are 18...17... now 16 cents.
There are today unions for a wide variety of occupations. They have proven to be implementable for unconventional employment. There is worker representation for piecework construction and agriculture, there are fisherman's unions.

My own experience planting in a unionized camp was pretty good. I payed about $12 per pay period to be folded under united steelworkers or something similar. This saved me about $13 per day in camp costs, and theoretically protected us from unpaid labour. There was no rep available and my efforts to contact one were unfruitful, but a tyrannical contractor that usually shows little respect for human dignity or laws was quite a bit more careful about ordering us to do reefers and camp work. Representation with actual correspondence, that is tailored to the planting industry could be quite beneficial indeed.

The sad reality today is contractors scrabbling to low ball each other at rates that don't even allow for for the basic legal requirements for health, safety and compensation of employees. Skirting legal regulations has become the status quo for the industry. How many rookie mills pay minimum wage for each person-hour spent dismantling, moving, and setting up their horrible camps? How many rookies are being topped up to minimum at first? How many drivers are being paid for each hour spent behind the wheel of a company vehicle? These are working hours for which employees must be ensured, I don't accept the excuse that theres "just no money" to pay them. I don't accept the cop out that "we are paid to plant trees, not set up camps". There is no money because we have allowed the clients and contractors to fillet the contract margins to the point where prices are bottom line and regulations cannot be met.

The frustrating part is that it is actually in the interests of contractors to have a unionized/represented workforce. I think most of these contractors sadly view unionization as a threat and would collude with the inevitable efforts of clients and foresters to block representation. Its like, whats going to happen? Is Brinkman going to start taking all its contracts at a loss just to steal all the work if we become unionized and across the board bids rise?

I remember being dangerously close to picking up an assault charge when my foreman refused to honk in support of striking CPR workers in Kamloops because "Folklore's policy is against unions" but I digress..

Everyone decries the current lack of oversight and enforcement. Mr. Tesluk your proposals are all well and good for minimum coastal wages and overtime regulations. Lets be realistic here though Jordan. We cannot currently enforce things like minimum wage and unpaid labour on the big companies with hundreds of employees. How do you propose to police the largely smaller coastal operations? I realize you have a vested interest in your employment and the current process, but I also think you have a genuine interest for the well being of the common planter. Remember those planters the day after your audit, and think about how things are going down at their rookie mill when you are not there to watch.

In my mind the solution to these problems are the workers themselves. If not a formal union a workers association through which infractions in regulations can be monitored and reported by the only people who are consistently there to monitor.

I'm not going to try to downplay the challenges in organizing a largely transient, seasonal workforce, but if it was ever possible, it is in the current age of social media and connectivity.

In a pre-emptive response to any potential childish rebuttals: NO, I'm not about to go try to make a union right now, and see how far I get. I do think its something we need to start seriously thinking and talking about. Prices have fallen, and are falling still. Inflation is real.

[Scooter]

It will take your primary employer taking labour laws seriously and paying all employees for each hour of work put in.

You're pretty out-of-touch. A lot of things have changed since you worked for me. Camp set-up and breakdowns are paid for. That's definitely not the case with all northern Interior contractors. Reefer unloadings are now paid for. I don't know of ANY other northern Interior planting companies that do this. Minimum wage top-up? To the penny. My own camp alone paid out over $22,000 in our first month a few years ago. How many companies up north do this legitimately? I have a ton of documentation from employees of other companies in our backyard who lie, cheat, and steal when it comes to legitimate top-up.

The funny thing is that Folklore IS trying to be a leader in these areas. The progress that we've made in the past five years amazes me. The problem is that not very many other companies are following.

I had an overwhelmingly positive experience planting at Folklore.

Thank you. It was good to have you.

[jdtesluk]

What will it take to get the industry back to what it was? Can that ever happen? Back to prices of fifteen or twenty years ago (or at least pre-2007)?

Everyone decries the current lack of oversight and enforcement. Mr. Tesluk your proposals are all well and good for minimum coastal wages and overtime regulations. Lets be realistic here though Jordan. We cannot currently enforce things like minimum wage and unpaid labour on the big companies with hundreds of employees. How do you propose to police the largely smaller coastal operations? I realize you have a vested interest in your employment and the current process, but I also think you have a genuine interest for the well being of the common planter. Remember those planters the day after your audit, and think about how things are going down at their rookie mill when you are not there to watch.

.

I'll just address the parts directed to me. Great post PlantingTaders.

Just to be clear. It's not really so much a proposal, but a suggestion based on the observation that the current employment standards were formulated in a major oversight of differences in working conditions between coast and interior. Correcting that would have potential positive outcomes for a select set of workers that play a much different role in the industry, than the two-monthers that typify the interior. The question was posed, what can be done? I threw out an idea that hadn't been fielded before.

As for policing and enforcement, as always, it is complaint based. A worker deprived of their entitle wages simply needs to go to EMployment Standards and file a grievance. This process generally works well when people actually follow through on it. I don't think enforcement would be the biggest challenge. Coastal planters are more aware of their rights than interior planters, and it is that ignorance and their short term in the job that discourages interior planters from complaining. I think the biggest challenge would simply be getting the legislation through. WOuld be fun to see someone table it as a bill. ANyone have a friend in the Legislative Assembly? Christy would probably kill it anyway, but maybe catch her on a crazy day.

As for my vested interest, it really isn't tied to labour organization or payment of the workers. As a safety auditor, I pay no attention whatsoever to compliance with employment standards (not my choice, just the terms of my job). Interestingly, employment standards were part of the original audit, but were removed after the first two years. I advised a few companies to change their practices, but really didn't have the power to do more. Indeed, I am fully aware that things may be different in normal operations than when I am there. That is why the workers will always have a greater potential to change things than an auditor. They have to take action though. That is the most frustrating part for me. I am legally bound against taking any action in identifying specific acts of non-compliance with Employment Standards, and cannot advocate any specific actions to workers during my audits. However, I am indeed aware of the conditions that extend beyond what I am shown by the company.

I can only say, in general, to workers (and not to any specific employee of any specific company) that there are effective means of pursuing your grievances. For f88k sake, we saw a group of rag-tag new Canadians take Khaira to court, TWICE! THe second time, they knew there was no money in it for them, but they went anyway, just to prove a point. If every worker simply knew their rights, and reported non-compliance to Employment Standards, certain practices would end in a hurry. I have sought to do my best to educate people of the regulations outside my scope as an auditor, and have pushed for programs to support this education within industry. But, ultimately it is up to the workers.

I also recognize that things in BC are still a lot better than in other provinces for planters. I point to our Employment Standards Regulation 37.9 as playing a key part in keeping the industry from falling even farther. Interestingly, 37.9 didn't come about as a result of disgruntled planters. It was pushed forward by contractors, people like Zanzibar, A&G, and others in the WSCA at the time (pardon me, I don't know the whole list). There were some that realized that they needed to insulate the industry from the impact of the business models based on replacing workers every year, and bidding and paying as little as possible. They realized that their job was reliant on retaining their awesome people, and tried to stick a plug in the dam. Don't underestimate the impact that move had. That is precisely why I threw out the idea of legislative changes as a potential tool to change the coast.

That being said, I gave no suggestion as to how to realistically pursue that goal, payed little heed to the standing of the current WSCA as a potent legislative-political actor, and merely threw the wage numbers out there off the top of my head. It's not truly for me to say what SHOULD be done..it really needs to come from the workers. The labour idea too keeps coming up year after year after year, with acknowledgement of the same old things, and the same old reasons for it not working. However, here I have suggested something new in focusing only on the coast. Just ideas, not action, but I'm just an ideas guy at this point (at least when it comes to Employment Standards).

[Scooter]

I'm going to point out that a tree planter's union or association is one of the only potential factors that could restore, preserve and protect the value of tree planting labour.

I could possibly see a union working on the coast, where workers have more invested in the industry and worry more about the future. In the Interior, where there is so much turnover as students graduate from school and take career jobs unrelated to planting, I just don't see much potential because nobody cares.

I remember being dangerously close to picking up an assault charge when my foreman refused to honk in support of striking CPR workers in Kamloops because "Folklore's policy is against unions" but I digress.

To be honest, in all my years at Folklore I've never even heard the owners or any of the project coordinators or even any of the other supervisors mention anything about unions. I just don't think it's even remotely on their radar. There is most definitely no "policy" against unions. I would have to say that that comment, if true, was purely a random comment from your foreman. Knowing who your foreman was, he was probably just too embarrassed to honk the horn.

We cannot currently enforce things like minimum wage and unpaid labour on the big companies with hundreds of employees.

Who is "we"?? Do you mean planters? Because if so, you're so wrong. The planters are the ONLY people who can enforce those things. I don't know how many planters from how many companies have emailed me with stories about labour law abuses at their companies: no pay for setups or teardowns, no pay for reefer unloadings, payroll that lies about the number of hours portal-to-portal so no minimum wage top-up is needed, illegal approaches to top-up like the "pool" of top-up money for a camp that runs out after not much more than 7 or 8 hours of top-up for each rookie ... the list goes on. I urge planters to talk to their companies to point out that what they're doing is illegal. In most cases, they won't. I urge planters to talk to the Employment Standards Branch instead of talking to me. In most cases, they won't. All that's left that I might be able to do is to take all these written allegations and write a huge book exposing the entire industry as one of the most underhanded, illegitimate industries in this entire country. And I'd love to do that to punish some of the contractors that regularly and willingly cheat their own employees. I could list a dozen notable examples. But the problem with that idea is that it would also hurt planters at a lot of companies as well as hurting the honest contractors out there. And thankfully, there are quite a few honest contractors out there.

Incidentally, on a side note, you singled out northern Interior contractors as being the root of the problem. Right now, the majority of the contractors that do NOT pay regularly on a bi-weekly or twice-per-month schedule at 100% are coastal or southern Interior. Thankfully, that's a problem that's really getting a lot less prevalent in the past three years, as even the smaller outfits are realizing that they have to pay regularly because their planters demand it. Certainly far fewer contractors are breaking this rule than was the case five years ago.

In my mind the solution to these problems are the workers themselves.

Exactly. Now a few of them just need to talk to the ESB about the labour laws that their employers are breaking. Here's a link to get them started:
http://www.replant.ca/employmentstandards.html


Edit: I see that Jordan posted the same comments about workers needing to move forward to the ESB on their own initiative, as I was typing this post out.

[PlantinTaders]

Thats fair Scooter. I didn't mean to unfairly single you or your employer out and I should've made it more clear that I actually do see Folklore as one of the best in its tier.

I do remember you guys starting to do token payouts for teardown and setups when I was there, which was definitely a step in the right direction. I also remember you guys standing out as actively informing rookies about their rights as per top ups etc.

My last post ended up more rambling than I wanted but the point I wanted to make is that until the industry cleans up shop and deals with the shit players that don't these things, as you say your contractor is competing with the ones that don't. I really don't think you can understate the impact this has on the industry as a whole. If the value of labour is being undermined by these factors in the high volume, lower skill level, common denominator work, the effects will be felt at other niches like we are seeing on the coast now.

Obviously Sheriff Tesluk's semi annual visits to town are not enough to keep the shady suits in line. Clients and provincial bodies certainly aren't going to throw resources at a problem that keeps their costs down. The only thing I can think of is having planters organized to a level where they can spearhead monitoring, reporting or enforcement of the regulations that are in place to protect us. Regulations that are currently ignored regularly.

It would be amazing to see a contractor help with this process, but probably highly unlikely due to their fear of being seen as a pariah by clients.

[Scooter]

Folklore is no more guilty than a dozen other companies, and won't turn everything around overnight by bidding higher and actually following regulation, but if they are the leader they claim to be they can make an impact and start leading by example

Look at the bid sheets. Of the 125+ jobs that I've personally looked at in the past five viewing seasons, I've won exactly two contracts. Mind you, I'm not the one actually putting the bids/prices together, I just look at the blocks and take lots of notes and photos. But I think if you look closely at the overall picture, you'll be surprised. Remember this post that you commented on?

01. $311,479 - 30.3 cents per tree - Seneca
01. $317,304 - 30.9 cents per tree - Coast Range
01. $343,821 - 33.5 cents per tree - AKD
01. $357,136 - 34.8 cents per tree - Leader
01. $361,207 - 35.2 cents per tree - Fieldstone
01. $366,173 - 35.7 cents per tree - A&G
01. $374,561 - 36.5 cents per tree - Zanzibar
01. $399,346 - 38.9 cents per tree - Celtic
01. $408,496 - 39.8 cents per tree - Folklore
01. $425,416 - 41.4 cents per tree - Blue Collar

bottom dweller
bottom dweller
bottom dweller
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
stupid northern company
stupid northern company
stupid northern company

Some of the stupid northern companies are less stupid than people think.

[PlantinTaders]

Thanks for the replies, sorry for the delay as I read and think.

You both bring up very good points and are considerably more well informed than I.

I think I've expressed some of my frustration in the wrong direction.

I'm angry that so many new planters get exploited by unscrupulous companies, and this allows these companies to operate business models that hurt the entire industry and the value of each planter's labour.

Its wrong to single out an individual company like Folklore or a group of companies that operate in a specific area as the root of a problem. Jordan I didn't know that you cover H&S exclusively in your audits. You and Scooter make an excellent point that the onus is on the planter to expose and correct these things. I'm frustrated because I see no resources for most planters to go about these things. Many contractors are actively obstructionist about this type of information, for obvious reasons. So many bush camps are full of kids with no clue what they are entitled to or how to achieve satisfaction if they feel they have been cheated or wronged. In many other camps this information may be available but taking action is discouraged by a "tough it out" culture fostered by the contractor.

We cannot currently enforce things like minimum wage and unpaid labour on the big companies with hundreds of employees.

Who is "we"?? Do you mean planters? Because if so, you're so wrong. The planters are the ONLY people who can enforce those things.

I meant "we" as an industry. The current process is clearly failing as being non compliant still seems to be the standard for most big companies. But yes, I would say that "we the planter" simply cannot enforce this. Not alone, not without more tools. Fear of reprisal and humiliation alone probably keeps most cases unreported off the top. Imagine being a 19 year old rookie and being told its YOUR responsibility to hold your employer to account. You need to refer to wordy regulations and contact the employments standards branch. No one else in your camp has even heard of this stuff and if you bring it up you will probably be ridiculed. I would be too intimidated and overwhelmed to do anything. Most people will just fall back in line, and "shut up and plant". One or two might come on here after and end up making a claim, the company might face some fines or settle with the planter. They would probably still find it financially beneficial to keep it up next year.

If the system is complaint and worker driven, planters need to have the knowledge and resources to act. But how do we ensure as many as possible have it?

Remember this post that you commented on?

01. $311,479 - 30.3 cents per tree - Seneca
01. $317,304 - 30.9 cents per tree - Coast Range
01. $343,821 - 33.5 cents per tree - AKD
01. $357,136 - 34.8 cents per tree - Leader
01. $361,207 - 35.2 cents per tree - Fieldstone
01. $366,173 - 35.7 cents per tree - A&G
01. $374,561 - 36.5 cents per tree - Zanzibar
01. $399,346 - 38.9 cents per tree - Celtic
01. $408,496 - 39.8 cents per tree - Folklore
01. $425,416 - 41.4 cents per tree - Blue Collar

bottom dweller
bottom dweller
bottom dweller
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
solid okanagan
stupid northern company
stupid northern company
stupid northern company

Some of the stupid northern companies are less stupid than people think.

I wasn't necessarily saying those bids were unsound business decisions for those northern companies. I was just agreeing with the poster's observation about the bottom dwellers bids being low end, with the companies that "deserve" the work in the middle spread, and the hopeful northern guys throwing bids in on the off chance everyone else declines and they get a cushy contract.

I was thinking if it wasn't one 3 shyte bidders at the bottom chances are one of the northern guys would throw a low bid in the equation, like, typical bullshit.

I will definitely have to do some research into 37.9. Was this brought about after the days of PRWA? As a planter its easy to see contractors as the enemy but there is definitely a lot of common ground and shared interests. I am pretty wary of the WSCA and their motives at times, especially considering their infiltration by brinkman goofs, but they make quite a few words about improving things for planters. I really enjoyed hearing John Betts take a few shots at foresters at the ABCFP, talking about how planters wages have fallen dramatically and saying "don't believe the headlines" in reference to the ridiculous brinkmart propaganda article some of you may recall in which brinkman planters are advertised as making $50k per season.

[jdtesluk]

Planting Taders, you bring up some great points, and in my opinion, your frustration is entirely justified, given what the job takes from you.
Everytime I read posts like yours, I make a few notes. For example, I put a lot of effort into getting workers to share their observations about the company. When it comes to safety, if the company is really slacking off in some area, I encourage workers to share it so that I can make the company aware that it is clear that their operations are not always as paper-perfect as when I am on site.

It definitely concerns me when I hear that employers withhold information from workers, such as the Employment Regulations. There is an ongoing discussion in the BC Safe Silviculture Project (BCSSP) and with well-meaning contractors to find ways of spreading helpful information more effectively. It was noted that the BC Forest Safety Ombudsman, Roger Harris, recommended that tree planters be provided with standardized training and education. Ostensibly this would include a clear summary of their rights, explicitly including Employment Standards. This recommendation came in his report on the Khaira case.

A report from an ombudsman, while not holding clear legislative power, nonetheless comprises a powerful statement. There are precedents indicating the industry MUST follow up on the recommendations, and must take action to amend the problems. Admittedly, the industry has been unacceptably slow to respond to Mr. Harris's report, and needs to be pressed to take action. Developing a standard education program for all workers, that covers all their rights, wage entitlements, rules against unpaid work, rules against fines being handed to planters, rules that limit camp and motel costs, and instructions regarding how to file a grievance and obtain enforcement support.....these are the kinds of things that need to happen to satisfy Mr. Harris's recommendation.

We remain an industry clawing along from one season to the next, and the BCSSP has actually done a remarkable job of producing some good work with their shoestring budget. However, my take-away from your comments, is that boot needs to hit ass in increasing workers' education and awareness of their rights, so that the enforcement system (that relies on complaints) can be married to a properly educated workforce.

[Scooter]

It was noted that the BC Forest Safety Ombudsman, Roger Harris, recommended that tree planters be provided with standardized training and education. Ostensibly this would include a clear summary of their rights, explicitly including Employment Standards.

I'm working on this. More to follow within 60 days.

[Mike]

If things go as planned, I will never plant trees again.

1) I think substantial education, and even a 1 or 2 year contract gig as a "forestry labour enforcement officer" who went around to planting camps and looked at payroll and talked to planters would be awesome. Actually getting the companies to follow the laws that they are supposed to would be an awesome first step.

2) I think Unionizing the Coast, and the Coast alone, with a "Coastal Planters Union" should be feasible. Going off my list here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=65894

Brinkman: Less than 100 planters on the Coast
Impact: 20?
Fieldstone: 40?
Osprey:
Sitka: 60-70?
Zanzibar: 40
Bivouac: 12-18
Wager: 12-18
Timberline: 40
Evergreen: 40-60?
Nootka:
Rainforest:
Stephan:

Total: ~400-500 coastal planters? And guess what, they mostly know each other, and they're mostly on facebook on the KKRF group. And if even a large minority or small majority (200-300) agreed to Unionize and set up work stop if necessary, they're not replaceable.

The problem to overcome is people at the good companies don't want to rock the boat too much for fear of losing their spot, and people at the lower pay range companies (Osprey, Wagner, Brinkman) are happy to even have a coastal spot at all, since they're generally less experienced, and/or might be more disconnected from the industry.

(Coast Range hasn't done coastal in at least 3 years, maybe 5).

[Jiveturkey613]

"

I just heard of a whole Osprey crew that quit at once last year. Haven't seen any stupid bids from them this year.

Like I said earlier the planters hold more bargaining chips than they realize.

"


I heard an entire Osprey crew got fired this year, not quit.

[Rainman]

I heard an entire Osprey crew got fired this year, not quit.

Interesting. The planter's rumor mill isn't exactly a reputable source for info.

It would be interesting to hear more of what happened.

[mwainwright]

I doubt very much that osprey fired an entire crew. Knowing what I know about them, having their crew quit seems much more likely.

[shawniganlaker]

definitely didnt fire a whole crew. Osprey's the type of outfit who will say this:

You Quit ! Fuck you, you cant Quit, YOUR FIRED ! Now good luck getting paid you planter scum !

[jdtesluk]

Take any company out there, doesn't have to be Osprey. I know nothing of what happened in that situation.

However, one must ask what is the likelihood of any company firing a whole crew, and then having to find a new crew to finish their job? Chances between slim and slimmer, when you know that losing your crew is the end of your contract. Maybe on a large company with multiple crews, you could see this happen knowing that others will pick up the slack. However, on a smaller scale operation, losing an entire crew is likely to land you in hot water with your licensee, and perhaps lead to you having problems finishing your contract properly. I have heard multiple stories of "crews being fired" in my time, and they almost always turn out to be passed-along versions of a semi-truth, about a job that was going wrong from the very start. Simply put, where there is smoke, there is fire....whether a crew quit or was fired, something went completely wrong in a way that does not happen with most reputable companies.

It would be really helpful to have information straight from multiple workers, and not from one individual, or even from the company. If a group or a majority of the workers quit, a company may well decide to "fire them all", which means those that were not in on the original mutiny would indeed end up with the perspective of "being fired". Therefore, there may be conflicting reports even among workers.

If anyone actually knows directly a person involved in such a situation, they should urge them to share their story, so that others can be properly informed of important circumstances in their industry. If that person was mistreated with respect to employment standards, push that person to file a grievance. They have a good chance of winning back any monies that they are legitimately owed, and they will be doing every other worker a favour by standing up for their rights.

[Scooter]

I've worked in two camps where entire crews were fired because of rampant stashing. It was quite reassuring to know that the problem was being dealt with. To be clear, that wasn't when I was working as a supervisor at Folklore, those cases were with two other companies. In one of those camps, a large crew of 10 or 11 people was fired. In the other, two small crews of five planters each were nuked at the same time.

I suspect that the odds of Osprey firing a full crew versus a full crew quitting would probably be slanted in favor of the crew quitting as being a more likely event. My opinion only.

[_I3^RELATIVISM]

As the coast see the increase of prices like seen in the interior in the recent years?