Tree planting and chemicals

[Christian]

I read a couple of posts having to do with herbicides used on seedlings. The general concern was that the herbicides/pesticides/chemicals on seedlings might be harmful to planters. These posts were a year or too old. Scooter wrote in a post that I read that is a couple of years old that there would be a study conducted in BC to find out what the effects of these chemicals on planters are? I just wanted to know what that study amounted to. What were the results. am I going to die. I don't want to die from chemicals. If I have to die, I'd like it to be something more heroic than that.

[the_dude]

i participated in that study last year that FERIC did, they asked me some questions as to whether or not my heart hurt, how much phlgem i had, and other questions like that

they paid me 8.33 cents for my time, kind of a sweet deal cause it only took 15 minutes and i didnt have to work.
never did hear back about that study though...

[daleks]

yah...best not to plant on a contract where chemicals are used...not only do you increase your phlegm count, but you'll probably a)break out with acne (34% of planters using chemicals), b)find that beer just doesn't taste the same at the end of the day (24% of planters using chemicals) and, c) you will unwillingly engage in what in Medical Terms is Referred To As " anal leakage " (52% of planters using chemicals)......imagine your embarassment on the day off when your'e doing your laundry...
but, hey, i merely throw out the suggestion......we all gotta make out own decisions....

[Sebastian]

Well, first of all, everything Daleks said is true...
Second, wow, just how many people on here are from Ottawa.
And third, and probably most importantly, I've worked a few contracts with pesticides, and it's not really all that bad. Make sure to wash your hands regularly (we've had hand washing stations at the cache), and use rubber dish gloves if you're that concerned. From what I've heard (and yes, this is hear-say and could be a complete fabrication, but I don't think it is), the pesticides on the trees aren't much different than the pesticides on the strawberries you buy at the grocery store, so it isn't likely to give you cancer overnight. Keep in mind, though, that you are touching thousands a day, so it might not hurt to take some precautions. And, you can always take solace in the fact that you don't have to deal with the problems they had in the earlier years of treeplanting; like dousing your trees in pig's blood or sulphur.

[kingjames_2nd]

the key is to study people after prolonged exposure to chemicals. No one contracted cancer after 1 cigarette or after sleeping 1 night in an asbestoes insulated house or after getting sunburned once.

an example is the use of creotine suppliments. no one knows what the long term effects might be. if you are very worried you'd best stay away from planting alltogether for the next 40 years till we see what the lifers start developing.

On that note, we used to role drum with our sick nasty grubby muddy chemicled fingers, smoke all day long and then eat our lunches all with out washing up. Contrary to daleks i never once sprung a leak. time will tell I guess.

happy planting,

Jim

[salbrecher]

And, you can always take solace in the fact that you don't have to deal with the problems they had in the earlier years of treeplanting; like dousing your trees in pig's blood or sulphur.

They still douse trees in pigs blood. I've planted them the past 2 years in Gold River, Nanaimo, Port Alberni, and Cowachin. They are to keep elk from eating them however, which pesticides and herbicides do not do. Some of them had Couger piss on them as well. It's almost worth the 2 cents extra for a little blood on your sleeves, the smell is not worth it though.

[jdtesluk]

The Feric study is still ongoing, and I believe they still have to collect additional data to establish their controls. I believe they are aiming for releasing some information by the end of this year.

This kind of research does generally take some time to finish, as they are strict scientific standards that they must adhere to in order to draw meaningful conclusions from their research. THe last thing they want is to claim they found a problem, then have their methodology picked apart and end up in a position of liability. Also, they want to be sure that they do not miss any problems by not looking into the issue carefully enough.

The Feric group is working in conjunction with UBC, so I have a lot of confidence in the quality of their work and their methodology. I have been working with the BC Safe SIlviculture Project since its inception as a worker representative, and have followed the progress of the Feric project as it evolved. I think it is a good indication that the industry is not afraid of the issue, and is willing to take a serious and critical look at safety issues that the planters are concerned with. A lot of support for the research came from planters who voiced their opinions about pesticides and fertilizers in the workplace. These opinions were brought before the WSCA by company owners, and myself.

As planters, I think we need to be aware that even if trees say "pesticide-free", there may still be fertilizer, herbicide, and fungicide residues. Furthermore, the block you are working on may have been treated with defoliation agents such as glyphosate (Round-up, Vision etc..) I strongly encourage all planters to wear gloves, wash their hands, and read their Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS). You should definitely ask your employer or your first aid attendant to make sure the MSDS are up to date and located somewhere you can find them. Education and personal protection is vital, no matter what is revealed by the research. I wear gloves with an impenetrable barrier no matter what land I am in. I sometimes wear an additional thin surgical glove under my main glove for extra protection. THis also keeps my hands nice and clean and almost eliminates chipped nails and those gnarly bits of crud that get jammed right under the nails. I think it actually helps my production because I can jam my hands in the ground without worrying about hurting my fingers as much. Duct tape, by the way, is not made for human skin application - apparently it containes fermaldehyde (a carcinogen) in the adhesive - if you're worried about chemicals you should avoid the use of duct tape unless you know the manufacturer and have read the MSDS in detail.

In regard to the pig's blood slurry (PlantSkyyd), I looked into the issue on behalf of some planters several years ago. THe product most commonmly used (that I am aware of) is manufactured in Norway. There is no danger whatsoever of communicable diseases (zoonosises) from the product as it is pasteurized and the pasteurization-proof diseases that do exist have never been observed among pigs. The main issue is probably being covered in blood while working in an area frequented by large predators (ie., cougars and bears). So again, personal cleanliness is key. I know it is pretty tough to stay clean when using blood slurry and it is raining or reall brushy, but I would definitely change clothes each day and have extra raingear and boots to go along with it. Personally, I'm not fan of the using the stuff myself, I makes me feel like I'm starring in a Rob Zombie video.

Hope that helps

[RedBaron]

Thanks jdtesluk great post, it will be interesting to see what comes of the Feric study. I wonder if they are working on identifying any carcinogens in the fert/pesticides that are particularly harmful to humans both acutely and chronically, one would think the data for the carcinogens in the pesticides would already be available so they must working on finding out how much of these carcinogens are getting transferred into the planters body through normal planting practices, blood tests ext??

Personally I would be surprised if the pesticides in the body from planting would out number the ones a planter consumes in the food they eat.

One thing to consider is a planter eats 2-3 times more food then a normal person and this would mean they would consume 2-3 times more pesticides/ext in there food as most camps don’t supply organic produce. Is there much difference in the pesisides sprayed on our food and the trees we plant?

[Scooter]

Personally, I've planted for a lot of years, and handled tons of trees with pesticides, and only about 95% of people who know me think I'm abnormal. Who knows if it is the pesticides?

Seriously though, I would definitely suggest taking precautions before eating, but as Reiner says, I think you probably get a lot more toxic chemicals introduced to your body through the food you eat, unless maybe you handle trees then eat with your bare hands before washing.

[Captain Slashpile]

we have had quite a bit of plantskydd around sechelt and campbell river this year....we use sprayers but we did have some pre dipped.......seems quite safe according to literature but ...fuck I think its gross....especially after a hardday off......

[johnay]

Study results came out in the fall. I participated in Gold River in the spring out of curiosity as to what I may or may not be exposing myself to. On my tree hand Chlorothalonil was detected (possible human carcinogen) but thankfully the bloodwork came out clean. It was a fert show and from what I understand there were no fertz in the fall. Connection?
Something to think about anyway. I know I am more conscious going into this season.
johnay

[jdtesluk]

I attended the silviculture conference in Kamloops this February, and the FERIC group (now called FP Innovations) gave a presentation on the tentative findings of the research. There is still a fair amount of calculating and verifying before the data can be confirmed and released as scientifically valid information, but the researchers were quite candid and open about the general indications.

I have been following the research from when it first began as an issue raised by planters during a health and safety committee meeting at a company with a particularly conscientious owner. I followed the research through the proposal and development phase as a worker representative with the BC Safe Silviculture Project and provided some feedback (along with many other people) during the development of the project. Based on that experience, and my own M.A. in social science, I have to say that I am very impressed with the thoroughness of the work and their methodology. Being affiliated with a university (UBC), I am confident that the ethical quality of the research is very high, and any serious threats to the health of the research subjects (the workers) would be the primary concern of the research. I have had to conduct my own work in accordance with the rules, and they are extremely strict.

Anyways, the general findings (thus far, and I am paraphrasing what I interpretted from the presentation, point towards few (if any) widespread serious threats to our health. There were no indications of airborne hazards (from dust or sprays), and no evidence of any problems based on the bloodwork. There were traces of one pesticide found on a small number of workers' skin in one area, but this does not necessarily mean that the pesticide is being absorbed- nor is it determined if the exposure level observed is within or outside of acceptable limits. Fertilizers, in particular, did not demonstrate any significant hazards.

I looked into the chlorothalinol, and will be trying to dig a bit deeper in the future, but the MSDS I have thus far found indicate that you would have to be exposed to a heckuva' lot of the stuff in order to constitute a threat. That being said, any carcinogen is a serious concern, and any substances classified as A1 or A2 (known and suspected carcinogens) are subject to a very strict set of regulations that greatly limit acceptable levels of exposure and the methods that can be used to prevent exposure.

That being said, there is always some level of hazard when you are handling chemicals. However, that level of hazard must be evaluated according to regulatory standards. If you carefully read the MSDS for most of the chemicals we handle, the acceptable exposure levels are generally far far higher than that which you could conceivable encounter in our workplace. The lethal dose (ingested) for most of the substances (glyphosate for example) is more than I could probably eat if I had to). Nonetheless, I still suggest that caution should be the order of practice. You will also notice that the MSDS usually require use of protective gloves when handling the substances. That is why gloves are mandatory for any company that is intending to follow appropriate regulations. Furthermore, not all gloves are equal. Old yellow "webbies' or "snot-gloves" are pretty much useless, as an effective glove must provide an impermeable layer. The increasingly popular half-coated gloves may in INCREASE chemical exposure by absorbing chemicals in the cloth part of the glove and holding them next to the skin. I recommend wearing a thin nitrile glove undrneathe if using such gloves. Using this technique, I have kept my hands Palmolive smooth and uncut over the last several seasons. Buying nitriles by the box works out to less than 10 cents a glove, and you can often make do with just your tree hand. Solvex or other tough rubber gloves with a white cotton liner is also a good way to go.

Ultimately, we are all exposed to a wide variety of chemicals in our daily and working lives. Sometimes the ground we work on has been sprayed with glyphosate (Vision, Round-up etc.) only weeks prior to planting, and we are provided with no notice of the chemical treatment because the window of notice has expired (even if there has been no rain). I do not say this to belittle the threat of pesticides, but rather to put in perspective and to even suggest that with the existing levels of chemical exposure we already encounter, we should be doing everything possible to minimize our exposure and absorption rates. Therefore, proper PPE (gloves gloves gloves!) and hand-washing should be the norm. I wash my hands in ditches, puddles or streams whenver possible. I also take an extra bottle of water to work that I use to wash my hands and face at the end of the day. This is also a good step towards spreading germs and general gribbliness (I mean we all use the bathroom on the block, how many of you wash your hands afterwards?).

Anyways, I don't think there is any reason to believe that the sky is falling in and we're all doomed to having three-headed offspring. I also think that the results of the research will not be hedged or shaped to any particular favour. I expect that the researchers will have some useful recommendations for the entire industry, and if there are any serious or significant problems, I will be at the front of the line to advocate for swift action to correct or remove the problems. In the meantime, I suggest not waiting for results, and doing what makes sense in the meantimes-cover up and protect yourself.

Keep in mind also, that the research may be limited in regards to synergistic qualities- that is the effect of chemicals once combined with others. There may also be situations or conditions of exposure that are not represented by the research. Therefore, you should again, exercise caution in limiting your exposure, and take extra care when working in close confines such as the back of a fist or a storage facility.

Like the rest of you, I eagerly await the results, and continue to stare suspicously at that freckle on my shoulder.

Green side up

[seanjackins]

Forget about cancer, what about my boys? Is there any research done on the effects on sperm count or sterility?

[jdtesluk]

Check the MSDS sheets, look at mutagenic effects. Women, pay attention to mutagenic and teratogenic. Those two categories of toxicity apply to reproductive toxins. As for the boys and the count, I'm pretty sure that wasn't covered in the research. I think it would require a vastly different research approach (insert various suggestions here).

[kingjames_2nd]

Check the MSDS sheets, look at mutagenic effects. Women, pay attention to mutagenic and teratogenic. Those two categories of toxicity apply to reproductive toxins. As for the boys and the count, I'm pretty sure that wasn't covered in the research. I think it would require a vastly different research approach (insert various suggestions here).

Sign me up!

[Audreywonderland]

Last fall I planted around Campbell River and was on «special mission» for 2 days. 100% fur with tea bags. Since it was raining well I burned my hand with the tea bags coz they were wet and then (I had my period) on the second day I started feeling really like shit so I stopped and fell asleep in the truck for a good 4 hours. Back in town I went to the hospital coz there really was something wrong. Well guess what? I had Toxic Shock (girls can get that from using a tampon). They had to shoot me and all (girls can die from that). The doctor told me the fertilizer could have well influenced my body and put it in a shock. And thats no joke. I was out of comission for a good week and it took me almost 2 months to gain my full energy back. I now use the diva cup (http://www.divacup.com) and it's the greatest invention since sliced bread because you can usally use it all day without having to empty it, even safer then wet naps. And girls, it's way more cheaper and ecological then tampons. So for the girls out there, be careful and guys well I don't think you can get toxic shock but still, it shows that chemicals CAN be harmfull for your body.

[LrootSlashwalker]

I think the human body is a lot more robust than you guys think. I'm don't buy into the mass paranoia that has fueled the organic food craze. I think that breathing the air in pretty much any city is probably exponentially worse for you than pesticide concentrations that are so low that you need a scanning electron microscope to detect their presence. On the other hand, maybe i'm just doomed because i've spent a few weeks mixing ten thousand of gallons of pesticides a day for a crop spraying company.

[Evergreen]

Plantskydd - nasty pig's blood mixture. We're currently planting trees dipped in this sticky smelly mixture in the Duncan area. It's definitely not nice to handle, but the manufacturer claims it's completely harmless. Does anyone know anything about ill effects? Is there any way to minimize the smell, etc???

[Mike]

FP Innovations is still around --- how's their pesticide study/FERIC study doing these days, Jordan?

[jdtesluk]

The study you may be referring to was done in cooperation with Dr. Hugh Davies from the School of Population and Public Health at UBC. There is a summary of the work on the WorkSafeBC research website, and a MA thesis produced from it by Melanie Gorman. The work was completed back in 2009 I believe.

There is nothing currently ongoing in this area. However, people are always developing new research, and you never know when a new project or a new approach to the issue may come long

[E.E]

More of an issue if you're spraying: today the WHO reclassified glyphosate as a 2A "probable" carcinogen most strongly linked to non-Hodgkin lymphoma.

[jdtesluk]

Or perhaps if you're working on a freshly sprayed block, as sometimes happens. Another reason not to pick and eat berries beside the railways or under hydro lines.

[Barbarian Planter]

In a couple of the Scottish and English companies that I have planted for, they used a kind of fish meal after new years. For whichever reason appropriate, the tree stocks were not coated before the turn of the year but by January 1st it was regulated by the Foresty Comission of Scotland for planting in the Kielder forest, and Northumbria that all the trees must have this mixture. It did smell a bit like the sea but also of the chemical tang of glyphosates, and was visible in small scales and glittering pieces of minerals. I always opted out of the season by this time for health reasons, I just don't want to take any risks like that, my health is more important in the end.

[_I3^RELATIVISM]

After doing a lot of planting outside of the main commercialized countries in the world, I have been coming to the realization, that the use maligned composts in Canada is common practice and kind of unmatched by most. Also trees don't grow at a normal pace, even when comparing to similar micro-climates and weathers, so all indicates a lot of this concerns to be relevant. Given regulations in North America are very lacking to what comes to this topic.