Cost analysis and advice for first time planters

[mmm..trees...]

I am a university student in Ottawa, and I went planting for the spring 2009 season. I am not going back for another season because it's not for me, I have posted some information that I think absolute rookies should know before deciding to investing this type of venture. Most of the information on forums is incomplete in that I have not found to date a really good guide of cost estimates. ( Not the typical planter-esque type thing to do I guess?) The information I have posted is the stuff that I wish I has access to when I was considering the notion of going planting.

I am no trying to bash planting in any way, its a good experience for some people, but university students and young people who are going planting for their first time they should be warned! It can be a costly mistake for some. What I have provided is a cost estimate of what the average and I stress AVERAGE planter may make come end of first season. The most important factor is money for most first time planters. Not many people plant because they want to plant commercial forests, and the figures of ‘$100/day’/’$200’day are too ambiguous to follow for rookies.

I know it has been posted a million times that tree planting is a highly individualistic experience, but from what I experienced last year, and the money estimates I have derived, my advice were to be summarized I would say unless tree planting is a multi year strategy to pay for school, (in the case of students) find another job. People who are not students have their own reasons; I will not go beyond my knowledge in this case.

Money---that’s what its all about, (mostly). If tree planting is your last option because of a down economy, and a job is better than no job, think again! It can cost anywhere from $500-$1000 to get yourself started. New gear costs a lot, its hard to find used gear, all the new gear and travel will tally at least $600, and probably more unless you are really economical and find some good bargains or can borrow equipment and get rides to camp. You may have to pay for plane tickets, new boots, tents, bags, shovels, this can really add up!

The amount of money you will make will be based on work ethic, ability and to some extent the company you plant with. But I provide a realistic estimate of what first year planters can expect to make at the end of a first season under some conditions.

Let's take some simple math. For instance you might gross $3000-6000 as a first year rookie. [ that's 37 500- 75 000 trees at 8 cents a tree, with even 60 000 being a lofty number of trees for a rookie to put in. We presume 60 day season, average scenario of 5 days on working 1 day off ratio. Under these conditions at best you would get 50 working days. At $6000 gross income this works out to $120/day average. Keep in mind the days you work you pay $15-$25 in camp costs and about $12 a day over 50 days to amortize the equipment expenses and travel.

At these different levels, under these realistic conditions, this is how much money you would take home

$6000, 75 000 trees --$120/day gross--$85-$95/ day net--Take home payà Net: $4250-4750

$5000, 62 500 trees--$100/day gross--$65-75/day net. --Take Home Payà Net: $3250-3750

$4000, 50 000 trees--$80/day gross--$45-55/day net --Take home payà Net: $2250-3750

$3000, 37 500 trees--$60/day gross--$25-35/day net. --Take home payà Net: $1250-1750

This means the money you keep when you get home will be significantly less than what you had probably expected. My company paid 8 cents a tree, others pay 10 I hear. So even at 10 cents a tree you would multiply my figures by a factor of 1.2 to get your net earnings. Some companies offer rookie bonuses or quality bonuses so your earnings could potentially be higher. Even so, you are paying for the cost of living and food for 2 months. That is worth something. But this estimate of mine provides rookie planters with a guide of what they should be expect to have in their bank accounts when the season is over.

At a $9.50 hour minimum wage in the city, you could gross about $3000, not including other costs for comparison. But keep in mind the experiences are worlds apart.

To explain the numbers, they are averages, AND JUST averages. Obviously during the first 2 weeks you may not plant much and pick it up to make a lot of money in the last few weeks. Also, don’t forget about personal expensed while at camp. A $5 bag of chips is really valuable in the bush, you may find yourself spending a lot of money on off days on alcohol and snacks. That could easily add another few hundred dollars to your expenses.

The important point is, is that if you only plan on planting for 1 season, you might actually end up making more money over the summer by working a regular job that is less demanding over a greater period of time. If you go back for a second season: that is where you really rake in the cash, because you have the gear, the skills and the connections to travel to camp!

This type of work is demanding and stressful, but for some people, it’s one of their most memorable experiences. Some people will enjoy working hard and being self sufficient for 2 months, while others benefit more by sponging off parents and working lazily behind a desk for 4 months.

To conclude, I have tried to present some realistic data as to what a first year tree planter will make. If you are not into planting for a multi-year investment to pay tuition--- you should probably take another job. Its tough to find out if you could even stick it out before you go, but the more research you do and the more preparation you undergo, you will increase your chances of succeeding.

This post is just my analysis of mine, and my friend’s experiences of the tree-planting world, so consider it, but under no means consider it absolute. If I have provided any misleading data, I stand corrected. What I have posted here will probably spark some debate, I am open to criticism and have to my best knowledge posted what I think to be fair estimates.



P.S> sorry for the freakin’ essay of a post.

[Nate]

Good post, thanks for putting that up. The problem with this type of message board (an unavoidable one) is that it really only expresses the opinions of those who have done well at planting, or at least well enough to stick around.

Your situation mmm...trees.... is not at all unusual, and it's important prospective planters know about the side of planting you've experienced. If I have any criticism of your post, it's that in your attempt to be fair (which is laudable) you might have underrepresented just how bad of an experience it can be for some people and how poor a proposition planting for only one year can be.

Some people really really really HATE planting, because they feel it's exploitative and degrading and not a viable way to earn money in the short term (or even long term, unless one gets on with a good company). And in some instances, they're absolutely correct. If you think about those rookies who gear up for planting, show up, then are fired because they're "not pulling their weight" - holy shit that sucks for them, and they're 100% justified in hating planting.

[newb]

yeah great post, and i agree with Nate. However, I would still not hide the fact that rookies can do very well in their first season. For example, last year was my first season (with a rookie mill) and my take home net was well over 2 times more then your highest "level". I would still consider those being realistic conditions.
definitely good information

[Scooter]

I think that's some really good info. I seem to recall there was one other thread here somewhere that talked about "startup" costs. If I had to come up with numbers to argue against and/or correlate with yours, here's what I'd say:

Planting gear: Hm. Bags, shovel, three silvicool inserts (not sure if these are used in Ontario), plot cord. Let's say $250.

Clothing: Assuming that you can get MOST of what you need from your existing old/work clothing, plus Salvation Army, you should only really need to buy:
- Rain gear, $100 (this is not high-end gear, but probably adequate for Interior planters)
- Boots, $100 (you can spend a lot more, of course, but a good pair of work boots can be had for this, although you might need a second pair by the end of the season if you get cheaper boots)
- Misc. $100 - let's just throw in some extra for extra socks, etc.

Camping Gear:
- Tent (if you can't borrow one) - basic cheap dome tent from Canadian Tire, $125
- Sleeping Bag (don't skimp here!), $125 (good to -20 CELSIUS)
- Foamie/Thermarest, $30

Miscellaneous:
- Bug Dope, Sunscreen, Water Jug, say $150.

So I'd say $1000 for the gear. I always recommend that planters come out with $500 in their pocket for spending money to tide them over until they start pulling in regular paycheques. And by regular, I mean NOT the first cheque for rookies. It will be the second or third cheque before you start to feel like you're not going to spend the rest of your life in pauper's prison.

Add travel ON TOP.


On the revenue side, I think your tree numbers are a bit soft, but maybe that's just for my camp. We didn't have a spectacularly long season last year, around 60 days. I think I had about seven rookies who stuck it out for the whole season (and one who left after four days). Of the seven, I don't have firm numbers, but I'd say that all fell within the range of between 60,000 and 95,000 trees for the season. Also, my camp didn't plant any trees for less than 10 cents last season, although we planted mostly prep, and admittedly most of them were only at or just a tiny bit above that price. If I had to guess the average price per tree for my camp last summer (I usually figure it out each year, but forgot to do that before I gave the payroll laptop back to the office), I'd say we were between 11.7 and 12.1 cents per tree average. Lots of 10-11 cent prep, and maybe forty blocks in Kamloops or Alberta in the 15-25 cent range. So to be safe, an average first-year planter in my camp probably grossed $8,000 to $10,000. That's certainly down - two years ago, the average first-year grossed about $10,500. Also, those numbers aren't indicative of all parts of Western Canada - rookies may do better in some places, worse in others. And those numbers are probably FAR different than Ontario.

But you also need to take camp costs & payroll taxes off that gross, even before you think about paying for the gear and travel. And you need a budget for "fun stuff" like the snacks in town that you mentioned.


Making sure that first-time planters understand what's involved is pretty important. This is a great thread to emphasize.

And when looking at my numbers, remember that this year is going to be WORSE than usual for the industry.

[Scooter]

Oh yeah, and you can NEVER emphasize this too much:

If you're only planning to plant for one season, DON'T DO IT.

You start making the real money in your second season, when you're harder, better, stronger, faster. And your gear is already paid for. There's a huge difference in your take-home pay in your second season when you can plant thirty or forty thousand more trees, AND you don't need to spend that $1000 on gear.

[Seabass]

Great posts guys. Part of the problem with planting is that prospective planters generally hear about the $300-400 days that people have and not so much about the $80 days (before camp costs). I know that was one thing that really surprised me when I was a rookie in that I hadn't been fully prepared for the first 3/4 of the season not really making any money. Companies, foremen, and vet planters will, often inadvertantly, amp up new planters with dreams of massive bank accounts at the end of the season. The thing that isn't noted so much is that it's only the most successful of rookies that make a large amount of money and they're often a very low percentage of the overall # of rookies. The majority often don't have a lot to show.

Nate's right in that this message board is populated mainly by those of us who have had success over the years in the industry. While we have a lot to share with new and prospective planters, many of us are far removed from our rookie seasons and as each year passes it gets harder to view that initial season in the same light we did at the time. I don't see any problem with your post, though it would be nice if you expanded more on what made your season a negative experience.

[Mike]

Also think about the number of days you get.

My rookie season was 44 days; and it's a good thing I ended up averaging close to 150 for the season, and didn't have to spend as much on travel by bussing, and didn't spend that much on gear; I still ended up taking a little more than 3 grand home.

Of course, the second year was well worth it...

[Dogmusher]

It is funny to hear about how there's no actual revelant information for new planters . I also found out that my rookie collegues didn't research at all on the subject before showing up, never knew anyone that planted before , didn't even read about it or watched video of it . I was even surprised they had been hired , as they were never in the bush before .. ah , rookie mills .

For my part as a rookie I found all the information before i went out there and I totally knew in what I was getting into. That is really not the majority though.

In Ontario , some rookies were making between 50-70 a day . Yes , that bad . And ... actually a good number of them didn't even quit (????) and I wonder why .

Depending on the company you may end up not showering for 10 days in a row , your hands , feet , legs and arms will bleed , hurt , be sore and your mom is far away to take care of you . Especially in the first year , you will most likely be hired in a rookie mill and it is not guarenteed you will have acceptable or even enough food (that's my experience for the food and I know there's some good cooks/budgets out there , but there's some bad ones too). You will be cold and wet and your boots will be frozen in the morning before you put them on . You wont make any revelant money especially in Ontario .

If you are a rookie and still not afraid of going planting , youre tough

[steel8909]

Haha I was one of those random rookies making $70 a day for half my season and I didn't quit lol Going for my second season now (Ontario again ) aiming to pound in 100,000 trees.

Also like to add that TARPS are really important. You dont really need to fork out a lot of cash on a tent aslong as you cover it up in tarps. Keeps it 100% waterproof too. Bring 2 or 3.

Another thing, about raingear. Dont forget to bring rain pants! Just as important as a good rain coat. I already spent almost $200 on a good a good set 100% waterproof\breathable coat\pants. You never know what the weather could be like. Last season Ontario had the crummiest weather, rained for probaly half the season. Being in the pouring rain with poor\no rain gear and making no money can bring almost anyone to tears

And here was what my total deductions were like

$130 for planting bag\shovel, we didn't need a plot cord or anything else
$1300 for $25 a day camp costs ( it was a 50+ day season ) I think it included hotels too
Total: $1430

Also there were extra deductions for overclaiming and hotel damages, so my actual deductions were closer to $2000

Hope this info can help out.

[Dogmusher]

Last season Ontario had the crummiest weather, rained for probaly half the season. Being in the pouring rain with poor\no rain gear and making no money can bring almost anyone to tears

mmh I know Ontario/Québec had the shittiest season in 2008 for rain , but for where I was last year for the most part it was really gorgeous weather , I think we even spent over a month without any rain or so . What area were you at ?
Totally off-topic here but just curious .

[steel8909]

North Western Ontario, pretty much right beside Manitoba. I think Manitoba was nomiated for having the worst summer weather ever in 2009.

[Dogmusher]

alright we got lucky in the down south east !!

[Saffa]

But it is one hell of a party your first year...
If your not making money after a month you should have the good grace to quit, you cost me money if you suck longer than that!!

[krahn]

my monetary experience my first season was similar, i did well planting wise but came out with a cheque of $600. mind you they still owe me 700-800 bucks over ten years later. it's definitely not for everybody. at least not to stick around but i think the majority of people can benefit from this kind of experience.

i think the quality of the camp is more important than the tree price your first season, if they hire a good mix of people and the food is great and the management decent, then even with ontario prices most rookies will enjoy it. i've been to lots of companies where almost every first year planter comes out very grateful for the experience.

[swamper]

Hey guys thought I would add in my two cents on this post.

I think tree planting is like a lot of things in life you get out of it what you put into it but it’s much more noticeable in tree planting. I could sit here and list off a lots of people that knew they were only planting for one year and still made it very worth their while. To get to my point most people aren’t that driven but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try planting or that if you aren’t doing well after the first month you should quit.
I think I am a good example for starting slow but still making it worth while. I sucked my first year. I was so bad that the owner of my company had his pregnant wife come for dinner with us and make fun of my friend and I for planting so few trees. To make it worse I had bought a fancy new sierra design tent which promptly broke on me during a storm one night, but I kept on planting and taped up my tent and luckily for me the season went long so I scraped a decent amount by the end. Even in my second season I didn’t get it. I doubled what I made but that isn’t hard considering what I had done my first season. Then in my third season (which happened to be with scooter) it clicked. Whatever it was for me it will be different for everybody but it changes planting from a summer camp for university students to one of if not the most profitable unskilled (lets not start that argument again) labour jobs out there.
I think everybody should try tree planting admitted it’s not for everybody. Just don’t get scared off by your first year. Stick with it and MAKE it be worth it.
My last year I planted to put a down payment on a house…

[Scooter]

That's a good point that Swamper has. Even though I really look at planting as a multi-year scenario, you shouldn't give up after your first year if you do poorly. That's the whole point ... successive years get better, almost without exception.

My own first year, I certainly planted harder ground than most people are used to. First contract - three weeks in trenches, ranging from 13-14 cents, up around Kenny Dam. After that, Northwoods outside of Dome Creek, lots of 15-18 raw. Followed up by Clearwater, tougher raw and fills for mostly around 18-23 cents.

Even with all those trenches at the start, I only broke 1000 on two separate days all season. Once in the northwoods contract, and once in September when we got back to faster land. I was the sixth slowest rookie on a crew of thirty-six rookies (and four vets). This was a statistic as measured informally in mid-season. Ironically, I think I ended up making the most of any of the rookies that summer, but only because I planted for two more weeks after the next last rookie quit. I worked until around September 9th that year - the seasons lasted a lot longer back then. My gross, from May 3rd to September 9th, was around $7600. Top grossing rookie out of 36!

Second year, it sort of clicked. I was able to break 2000 in faster ground within a week. From that point, I was a medium-speed, high-quality vet for a long time.

In my seventh year, it really clicked. First time I hit 3000. I don't know why it took that long (I was also a foreman/supervisor for several years by that point, so not planting full seasons, or else I think it would have clicked earlier). But after that point, tree planting was a different game for me. It was suddenly easy, mindless, something I could do quickly and efficiently, and almost fun.

I think that almost without exception, planters improve significantly for at least each of their first four seasons. After that, maybe the "improvement curve" is a lot flatter, but no matter how many seasons you put in, I think you improve more and more each year.

[ekim]

My first season I went overboard, had a pack full of things, which I quickly learned had no use.

I have it somewhat easy though as I go home every night

Startup costs should be very low as you have no idea if you can hack the job in the first place. I bought a pack, water jugs and a pair of boots, just over $100 total.

My first year was hell, no the planting itself but my fellow rookies were complete idiots. They were planting 3000+ by the 4th week, but with shit trees and horrible plots. I averaged around 1600 but all my plots were perfect, and not just the proper number of trees in a plot but the proper ratio of pine-spruce.

Once you ignore other people and their greed and start to plant as a way to improve youself then that's when you realize why so many plant for so many years.

[Screefhead]

While the math might be correct, IMO a lot of the earning numbers are unrealistic and startup costs can be much less with a bit of careful planning.

First off, for any decent rookie $150/ day average should be easily doable. If you're still making $100 - $120 a day a month in, you're wasting you're time. Maybe its an Ontario planting thing, but even the worst BC rookie mills have higher avg's than $150/day.

Good companies establish a culture where everyone is expected to work hard and make good money. A competent foreman can get almost any planter up to speed in a few weeks.

Most equipment and clothes can be had for cheap at Value Village, Salvation Army , Kijiji, Craigslist ... etc. With
the exception of boots, I'd recommend buying almost everything used.

[Mike]

First off, for any decent rookie $150/ day average should be easily doable. If you're still making $100 - $120 a day a month in, you're wasting you're time. Maybe its an Ontario planting thing, but even the worst BC rookie mills have higher avg's than $150/day.

In my last two seasons (1st year; The Planting Company and Dorsey Contracting, 2nd year, Windfirm Resources), this statement has not been true. True for some, but definitely not all. I'd say maybe 30-40% of the rookies I've seen averaged 150$/day their first season. I did not in my first season; I averaged ~138$/day for the 44 day season.

You are right about cutting down start-up costs, though.

[Seabass]

First off, for any decent rookie $150/ day average should be easily doable. If you're still making $100 - $120 a day a month in, you're wasting you're time. Maybe its an Ontario planting thing, but even the worst BC rookie mills have higher avg's than $150/day.

$150/day in Ontario is 2,000 trees with most companies... For a rookie it's a helluva lot easier to make $150/day in BC than it is in Ontario.

[The_Bearslayer]

Once and for all, in reference to any subject discussed on this site: Ontario doesn't count.

[Dogmusher]

"In reference" of the OP , it is about an Ontario experience
And I wonder , the percentage of rookies hired in Ontario vs BC ... must be significant

[Scooter]

I'm going to set up a separate forum for Ontario planters, once I get the database problems fixed. Right now, the board won't let me add new forums. I'm going to add that at the same time that I add a planting-related music forum. If the Maritimes can have its own forum, surely Ontario can too? I mean, it IS the most important province in Canada.

How many Ontarians does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one. He stands still, and the world revolves around him.

[Richianity]

Set realistic goals before you go. Underselling and overperforming = you are never dissappointed.

Once you get good you should be able to control how much money you make and develop a level of consistency that will average out throughout the season. NHL players can't go 100% every game because they have to think about the long haul (ie the entire season). Same thing with planting. Once that happens, your 'money making' will be basically a given (for example $(225-25)*50 days = $10,000) then you can focus on minimizing your costs.

If you are going to school and are disciplined enough, don't have tax taken off your paycheque. Why would you give the government an interest free loan if you don't have to? This will give you more money in Sept to pay for tuition....do this ONLY if you are focused and disciplined.

The biggest drain on your earnings will be partying/days off. By the time you factor in hotel, food, rec centre etc you're looking at $50/day off. If you go to the bar on the night off, you'll be looking at $100 minimum. If you get 10 days off, you're looking at $1000 right there. If you party during the shift, you'll be spending money AND setting yourself up to have a shitty day which will cut into your earnings. You gotta be on a bit of a mission to make your goals happen.

Classic money saving tips would be to

-Spend night off in camp. If you're not looking to go into Quesnel and act like a complete douche so you can have a story for back home then stay in camp. A guitar, a 6 pack and good conversation is probably a better night off then chasing local tail at the bar (they aren't that hot, trust me).

-Make 2-3 'lunches' the day of night off. Preferrably stuff that will keep for a day.

-Hard alcohol is cheaper and will get you more effed up faster.

- As previously stated, DO NOT buy any new clothing except boots. You don't need a fancy tent. Planting bag are planting bags etc. Often times, less is much more.

-Changing contracts rarely results in making more money. The money you miss moving will likely not be made up by the new, hopefully better contract. If you're in it for the money, just tough it out (unless we're talking complete shit).

If you got 45 days lined up and your tuition is $6,000 then you gotta make $158 -25 = $133. Entirely doable and anything above that is gravy train.

[Chocolatej]

I'm going to set up a separate forum for Ontario planters, once I get the database problems fixed. Right now, the board won't let me add new forums. I'm going to add that at the same time that I add a planting-related music forum. If the Maritimes can have its own forum, surely Ontario can too? I mean, it IS the most important province in Canada.

How many Ontarians does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one. He stands still, and the world revolves around him.

Any chance of the Ontario forum happening? I think it would be mighty useful in the new year when potential planters start lurking...

[mel_eff]

Definitely a good post. I started in 2009 and although I ended up making pretty solid money for my rookie year, the second year and third year were with significantly less "organized" companies, and although I obviously turned a profit there, it just simply isn't worth it anymore. So after three years of something I thought I'd commit to for at least seven or eight, I've hung up my bags indefinitely.

However, one quick note. If you're really resourceful, your startup costs will not put you back more than a couple hundred bucks. If you've even bothered to consider planting then chances are you're an outdoorsy type and already have a tent, hiking boots, miscellaneous camping stuff that can easily be brought planting. Also, borrowing stuff from people and letting them know they probably won't get it back in the same condition, if at all, is a good idea too. Don't forget to call in early birthday presents from family if you're a spring or summer baby. All I had to do was go get my bags, shovel, and buy a bunch of disposable clothing from Value Village. The dollar store is a haven for menial shit like shampoo, soap, toothbrush and holder, etc. No need to be a brand whore in the bush. Your butthole doesn't care if you wipe with pampers wipes or no name wipes, so long as it gets wiped. I even managed to find a solid rain coat at value village for 4 bucks and the darn thing lasted all three seasons and if it didn't reek like pesticide, I wouldn't have burned it at the end of June. Also looking around on Craigslist or Kijiji for ride sharing is a really good call and usually a few PR's and ten bucks got me to where I was going. The biggest thing I learned to keep your shit in good condition is to dry it as soon as you can when it gets wet. Also another good idea to keep your shit in good condition is to just not go planting.

[Scooter]

Any chance of the Ontario forum happening? I think it would be mighty useful in the new year when potential planters start lurking...

We had one for a short time, but then merged it with the rest of the board. The two worlds are becoming more intertwined every year. Ontario planters pay a lot of attention to what's happening out west, and BC companies look to Ontario for recruiting purposes. And several companies work in both areas. There are even a lot of planters who work in both regions but for different companies at different times of the year (especially since there seems to be a lot more work in Ontario in August nowadays than in western Canada, except for the bad end-of-summer west coast contracts that companies can't seem to finish).