I was asked to share this by a contact at the WSCA. It is realted to Scooter's thread on the same topic.
To: All Planters, Brushers, Spacers, Fire Fighters and Silviculture Workers:
From: Communications Committee, WSCA.
We need your help. Our forests are under attack by the beetle and our jobs are at stake.
It is time to speak out on the state of our forests and the state of our industry. There is a disconnect between forest health and provincial forest policy in Western Canada. It is time to bring this into public awareness.
As a Planter, Brusher or Firefighter you are part of the silviculture community. In 2008 there were over 6000 of us in Western Canada alone and we all depend on the silviculture industry for employment each year. In 2010 this number has dropped to 4000. Where will this number be in 2011?
It is clear that forest health is at stake; however, there is more at risk. Our Jobs depend on the health of the forest. However, the inverse is equally important: forest health depends on us doing our jobs. We need to GROW MORE TREES AND PLANT MORE TREES. This depends on political will. And political will is influenced by public opinion. So it is up to us to start asking the right questions and talking about the facts. What is the real state of our forests? What is the real state of our industry? Why are we planting less trees when there are millions of hectares of dead bug wood?
So what can we do?
1. Know the facts. Talk with the owners of the company you plant with.
Talk with other planters about the state of the industry.
Action:
Visit www.forestfacts.ca
Endorse the web page by signing your name below it.
The Goal:
Have every planter in the industry endorse the message.
2. Write your MLA and MP.
Download the letter from www.forestfacts.ca to your MLA and MP and then send it to your MLA and MP.
3. Take pictures. Pictures of planters or beetle killed forests or whatever you believe best captures the essence of what we do and the issues around forest health.
It can be as simple as the hand of a planter or as beautiful as an owl in a dead pine tree.
Action:
Enter our Photo Contest.
Theme: Community, Environmental or Economical images that are affected by Forest Health Issues.
The Contest:
· Limited to the first 2000 pictures.
· Limited to 3 pictures per photographer.
· Must be submitted by June 21st.
· Judged by July 15th.
· Judged and voted on by YOU.
· The Prizes: STAY TUNED…… TO BE ANOUNCED.
· The top 12 pictures get published in the 2011 WSCA Treeplanter Calendar.
Note: To simplify this process all pictures need to become property of WSCA.
4. Make a video to celebrate what we do.
Action: Enter the Video contest.
Theme: TREE PLANTING MAKES THE REST OF OUR LIVES FEEL EASY.
The Contest:
· Limited to the first 100 Videos.
· Limited to 1 video per person.
· Must be submitted by June 21st.
· Judged by July 15th.
· Judged and voted on hits on YouTube.
· The Prizes: STAY TUNED…… TO BE ANOUNCED.
· Links for videos need to be sent to Karline at the WSCA admin@wsca.ca
5. Participate in Celebrating Planter Appreciation Day with your company on June 5th.
This is an annual event that started when we celebrated the planting of BC’s 6 billionth tree on June 5th 2008.
Action:
Talk to the media on June 5th during the Planter Appreciation Day. Have a story written about planting and the value it brings to the environment, the economy or community. Once this story is published send it to the communications committee at stories@forestfacts.ca and we will post them on the web site.
What we do has great value. We need public awareness to put pressure on the government. We need the government to address the climate issues, acknowledge the beetle problem, and be accountable to their environmental obligations.
We need to GROW MORE TREES AND PLANT MORE TREES and do more silviculture. There is a lot riding on this so please participate.
We cannot do this without you.
Please feel free to contact any of us at any time with feedback or ideas.
Sincerely,
Communications Committee, WSCA
Tim Tchida; tim@forestfacts.ca,
John Lawrence; john@forestfacts.ca,
Judi Tetro; judi@forestfacts.ca,
Carlo Galvani; carlo@forestfacts.ca
All Silviculture Workers- forest action
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Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Anyone know what source (other than Tchida) the claim that 3-6 million ha of beetle kill trees will not
regenerate naturally comes from? I'm skeptical of this.
regenerate naturally comes from? I'm skeptical of this.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
This claim is not coming from Tchida. He is merely volunteering some of this time to assist with the communications effort, and passsing on information he has received from other parties. I expect he could reference it if you wanted, but I believe the goal was to communicate, not write a journal article. The WSCA obtains much of its information from some of the larger surveying and forestry consulting companies in the province, including BA Blackwell and Associates. They also employ the services of a statistician, whose skills make my PhD level quantitative abilities seem frail in comparison.
There is a distinct gap in understanding in the government when it comes to silviculture. THe Ministry of Forests has essentially functioned as the "Ministry of Logging" for many many decades, and essentially functions as a mechanism for enabling an ongoing industry of timber extraction. Silviculture has never been a strong suit in MOF (at the policy level), and has largely developed in the private sector as contractors took over planting during the last 40 years. Remember, that silviculture policy has generally been based on "free to grow" which only focuses on freeing logging companies of their responsibility to the land as quickly as possible after removing the timber values. It has never really been based on a comprehensive understanding of long term forest health. There is substantial expertise in the bureaucracy of MOF in the foresters and scientists, but the single-minded focus of the government on pleasing forestry companies and maintaining wood extraction to support profits has made little use of the information and understanding held by the people they employ. Meanwhile, academics and private sector companies have developed in-depth expertise that has supported modelling tools that have enabled. If one were to attend the WSCA conference, you would have a great opportunity to hear from the people that actually know what is going on the woods from hands-on research, rather than from the mis-informed and pandering ramblings of a politician (no offence intended to the current minister, another party would be no different, politics is politics, they pander and talk about things that they don't necessarily fully understand, and focus only on limtied facts and versions of facts that support thier specific agenda).
Anyways, in sum, I would suggest that the facts presented in the WSCA briefing are quite reliable. If anything, they have underplayed many of the issues they are concerned about, out of fear of being shut out by the political elite in the decision-making processes. The WSCA executive have worked closely with forestry scientists and surveyers, to the point of going on tours of the most heavily affected areas and looking at what is occuring in the areas that were first affected by the beetle. Thier position is thus based on first hand experience as contractors, and on the expertise of people imminently qualified in the field.
If it was just some contractor's opinion, I'd be skpetical too. However, I believe that the numbers presented by the WSCA are more accurate than any you might get from the Govt.
There is a distinct gap in understanding in the government when it comes to silviculture. THe Ministry of Forests has essentially functioned as the "Ministry of Logging" for many many decades, and essentially functions as a mechanism for enabling an ongoing industry of timber extraction. Silviculture has never been a strong suit in MOF (at the policy level), and has largely developed in the private sector as contractors took over planting during the last 40 years. Remember, that silviculture policy has generally been based on "free to grow" which only focuses on freeing logging companies of their responsibility to the land as quickly as possible after removing the timber values. It has never really been based on a comprehensive understanding of long term forest health. There is substantial expertise in the bureaucracy of MOF in the foresters and scientists, but the single-minded focus of the government on pleasing forestry companies and maintaining wood extraction to support profits has made little use of the information and understanding held by the people they employ. Meanwhile, academics and private sector companies have developed in-depth expertise that has supported modelling tools that have enabled. If one were to attend the WSCA conference, you would have a great opportunity to hear from the people that actually know what is going on the woods from hands-on research, rather than from the mis-informed and pandering ramblings of a politician (no offence intended to the current minister, another party would be no different, politics is politics, they pander and talk about things that they don't necessarily fully understand, and focus only on limtied facts and versions of facts that support thier specific agenda).
Anyways, in sum, I would suggest that the facts presented in the WSCA briefing are quite reliable. If anything, they have underplayed many of the issues they are concerned about, out of fear of being shut out by the political elite in the decision-making processes. The WSCA executive have worked closely with forestry scientists and surveyers, to the point of going on tours of the most heavily affected areas and looking at what is occuring in the areas that were first affected by the beetle. Thier position is thus based on first hand experience as contractors, and on the expertise of people imminently qualified in the field.
If it was just some contractor's opinion, I'd be skpetical too. However, I believe that the numbers presented by the WSCA are more accurate than any you might get from the Govt.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
what motivation do planters really have to support the WSCA--i.e. the group of contractors that yearly engage in the practice of slitting each others' throats, allowing the licensees to make fools out of them while playing one against the other in a game of 'how low can you go' bidding processes???
during the tenure of the WSCA (mid-80's til now), planter's wages have steadily decreased amid sky-rocketing costs of living.
every contractor i've ever met is well-off, or on their way there (and in most cases overweight and underworked); compared to the hundreds of planter's i know who not only struggle daily to make ends meet, but often must work another job in the off-season just to get by. and, last time i checked, it is the planter's who end up with blown knees, fucked-up spinal columns, and higher potential for cancer by repeated/concentrated exposure to cancer-causing pesticides/fertilizers...
(this is but a sample of long-term issues that career planters face, without getting into the yearly strain of putting our bodies through a regimen where we can't possibly ingest the amount of calories burned-per-day which results in drastic weight-loss, as well as other fun ailments endured in-season).
we have no benefits, no union, few rights, and no protection against the continual erosion of our wages. the one body/organization who potentially could (now, and could have in the past) stand up to the licensees (and/or government) in order to protect wages for silviculture laborers' is the WSCA--but they let us down. contractors have been far to willing to sacrifice planter's wages in order to secure greater volumes of work so that their businesses continue to turn an ever-increasing profit. and now they want our support?
if the WSCA continue's to approach forestry and forestry work with the type of business model it has employed the last 20 (or so) years, the sooner it goes tits-up the better.
i mean imagine all of the silviculture worker's rallying to support the very apparatus which yearly demonstrates that they value us less and less and less and less....
during the tenure of the WSCA (mid-80's til now), planter's wages have steadily decreased amid sky-rocketing costs of living.
every contractor i've ever met is well-off, or on their way there (and in most cases overweight and underworked); compared to the hundreds of planter's i know who not only struggle daily to make ends meet, but often must work another job in the off-season just to get by. and, last time i checked, it is the planter's who end up with blown knees, fucked-up spinal columns, and higher potential for cancer by repeated/concentrated exposure to cancer-causing pesticides/fertilizers...
(this is but a sample of long-term issues that career planters face, without getting into the yearly strain of putting our bodies through a regimen where we can't possibly ingest the amount of calories burned-per-day which results in drastic weight-loss, as well as other fun ailments endured in-season).
we have no benefits, no union, few rights, and no protection against the continual erosion of our wages. the one body/organization who potentially could (now, and could have in the past) stand up to the licensees (and/or government) in order to protect wages for silviculture laborers' is the WSCA--but they let us down. contractors have been far to willing to sacrifice planter's wages in order to secure greater volumes of work so that their businesses continue to turn an ever-increasing profit. and now they want our support?
if the WSCA continue's to approach forestry and forestry work with the type of business model it has employed the last 20 (or so) years, the sooner it goes tits-up the better.
i mean imagine all of the silviculture worker's rallying to support the very apparatus which yearly demonstrates that they value us less and less and less and less....
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Simple. BC planters probably have it beter than planters anywhere else in North America. Period. You can make an argument for Alberta, but it's a stretch. A large part of the market conditions for planting is due to the proactive efforts of the WSCA. I think they would be a whole heckuva' lot worse without their actions.
You suggest that the WSCA is the mechanism that has driven down tree prices. This is mistaken. When I imagine the industry without the WSCA, I shudder. Remember, it is the WSCA that brought about legislation to set guidelines for worker wages to prevent them from going below minimal levels, and to eliminate unfair bonus systems and ridiculous camp costs. THe workers did not organize and accomplish this; the contractors did this to ensure that the market conditions would not sink to the level seen in Washington State or Ontario. You seem to ignore this, and incorrectly assert that the WSCA has done nothing to protect planters' wages (see Labour Standards 37.9 for Silviculture WOrkers). If there are culprits, it is the forestry companies that have used a wide variety of tactics to drive down bid prices, and used every angle possible to reduce their reforestation activities, thus eroding the supply of work in the market and decreasing the pool of work available for bid. You seem to treat the WSCA and actual forestry companies in control as interhcangeable entities. This is incorrect. The WSCA is constantly fighting the forestry companies to preserve some semblance of a market for planting in this province.
Additionally, your point about planters having higher potential for cancer is totally unfounded. THere is absolutely no research whatsoever to support this claim. If you review the latest research from UBC you would have a better idea of what is actually the case in terms of chemical exposure (see thesis for Melanie Gorman). This research was done by an independent party, to the highest ethical guidelines. The WSCA contributed considerable money and directly supported the research. Clearly they can have no interest in seeing the workers they rely on being poisoned. WOrkers complained about chemicals, but never actually took any collective action. Through the WSCA, a few students, some cooperative contractors, and the support of WorkSafeBC, over $100,000 was spent to investigate this issue.
I understand your perspective and your assessment of worker conditions, but I think you really need to have a better understanding of what goes on at the policy level, in the bidding market, and in forest practices before you target the WSCA as the reason for declining wages. Supporting this initiative is to rally for more planting activity, and to restore some balance in the harvesting to reforestation balance. THe workers have simply not organized or done much to help themsleves. Despite efforts to lead them to water, as a collective they have chosen not to drink. I personally think the industry would be better off if the workers organized and exerted some collective will. I also know that most members of the WSCA would support such a movement and would welcome the workers to the table as a force to help stabilize market conditions. But if, you want a worker movement, no-one's going to do it for you. In the meantime, the only organization that has maintained any modicum of stability in the planting market (the WSCA) is attempting to stem the bleeding that has occurred during the last few years. They would welcome workers getting involved in determining the future of the industry. They want your participation, and it is for the good of all silviculture workers (in terms of amrket conditions) if a movement to increase planting activity is successful. Kapeesh?
To be clear, I think your critique of the objective conditions for planters is accurate in terms of conditions. I am still recovering from my 15 years of planting, trying to get my hips straight, shoulders down, and knees tracking straight. However, you need to rethink the cause of this. The WSCA does not control the forestry industry. They are little fish in a big pond, trying to prevent the really big fish from eating everything and leaving nothing for us minnows. Yes, they bid on the jobs, but they do not control the conditions of the market, or the entry of new competitors into the field. Remember, anti-combines legislation prevents any agreement on bid prices between competing parties. THis would be collusion, and it is vigourosly prosecuted in our free-market system where capitalism is god. You simply cannot agree to not bid below a certain level, you can only compete. Nor does the WSCA control the policies that determine what amount of reforestation is to be done, or how it is to be done. These policy decisions are made by forestry companies, and by ministers that take their cues directly from forestry companies. THe WSCA just responds.
ANyways, I don't think planters owe the WSCA anything, but participating in movements that address the conditions of the market they rely on makes intuitive sense. I have worked in cooperation with them because they have generally supported every initiative I have suggested as being in the best interests of the workers. I have suggested a whistle-blowers guide for employees (and other employers) to report regualtory violations (including illegal payroll practices). WSCA members I spoke with supported this wholeheartedly. Just an example. SO, if you're going to hate on someone, get the context right, the facts right, and come on back with something more. Your angst is legitimate, but would be better focused on a suitable target.
You suggest that the WSCA is the mechanism that has driven down tree prices. This is mistaken. When I imagine the industry without the WSCA, I shudder. Remember, it is the WSCA that brought about legislation to set guidelines for worker wages to prevent them from going below minimal levels, and to eliminate unfair bonus systems and ridiculous camp costs. THe workers did not organize and accomplish this; the contractors did this to ensure that the market conditions would not sink to the level seen in Washington State or Ontario. You seem to ignore this, and incorrectly assert that the WSCA has done nothing to protect planters' wages (see Labour Standards 37.9 for Silviculture WOrkers). If there are culprits, it is the forestry companies that have used a wide variety of tactics to drive down bid prices, and used every angle possible to reduce their reforestation activities, thus eroding the supply of work in the market and decreasing the pool of work available for bid. You seem to treat the WSCA and actual forestry companies in control as interhcangeable entities. This is incorrect. The WSCA is constantly fighting the forestry companies to preserve some semblance of a market for planting in this province.
Additionally, your point about planters having higher potential for cancer is totally unfounded. THere is absolutely no research whatsoever to support this claim. If you review the latest research from UBC you would have a better idea of what is actually the case in terms of chemical exposure (see thesis for Melanie Gorman). This research was done by an independent party, to the highest ethical guidelines. The WSCA contributed considerable money and directly supported the research. Clearly they can have no interest in seeing the workers they rely on being poisoned. WOrkers complained about chemicals, but never actually took any collective action. Through the WSCA, a few students, some cooperative contractors, and the support of WorkSafeBC, over $100,000 was spent to investigate this issue.
I understand your perspective and your assessment of worker conditions, but I think you really need to have a better understanding of what goes on at the policy level, in the bidding market, and in forest practices before you target the WSCA as the reason for declining wages. Supporting this initiative is to rally for more planting activity, and to restore some balance in the harvesting to reforestation balance. THe workers have simply not organized or done much to help themsleves. Despite efforts to lead them to water, as a collective they have chosen not to drink. I personally think the industry would be better off if the workers organized and exerted some collective will. I also know that most members of the WSCA would support such a movement and would welcome the workers to the table as a force to help stabilize market conditions. But if, you want a worker movement, no-one's going to do it for you. In the meantime, the only organization that has maintained any modicum of stability in the planting market (the WSCA) is attempting to stem the bleeding that has occurred during the last few years. They would welcome workers getting involved in determining the future of the industry. They want your participation, and it is for the good of all silviculture workers (in terms of amrket conditions) if a movement to increase planting activity is successful. Kapeesh?
To be clear, I think your critique of the objective conditions for planters is accurate in terms of conditions. I am still recovering from my 15 years of planting, trying to get my hips straight, shoulders down, and knees tracking straight. However, you need to rethink the cause of this. The WSCA does not control the forestry industry. They are little fish in a big pond, trying to prevent the really big fish from eating everything and leaving nothing for us minnows. Yes, they bid on the jobs, but they do not control the conditions of the market, or the entry of new competitors into the field. Remember, anti-combines legislation prevents any agreement on bid prices between competing parties. THis would be collusion, and it is vigourosly prosecuted in our free-market system where capitalism is god. You simply cannot agree to not bid below a certain level, you can only compete. Nor does the WSCA control the policies that determine what amount of reforestation is to be done, or how it is to be done. These policy decisions are made by forestry companies, and by ministers that take their cues directly from forestry companies. THe WSCA just responds.
ANyways, I don't think planters owe the WSCA anything, but participating in movements that address the conditions of the market they rely on makes intuitive sense. I have worked in cooperation with them because they have generally supported every initiative I have suggested as being in the best interests of the workers. I have suggested a whistle-blowers guide for employees (and other employers) to report regualtory violations (including illegal payroll practices). WSCA members I spoke with supported this wholeheartedly. Just an example. SO, if you're going to hate on someone, get the context right, the facts right, and come on back with something more. Your angst is legitimate, but would be better focused on a suitable target.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Hey J.T. Another well thought out rebuttal to someones ill thought out remarks. B-Dawg is another naysayer who would jut as soon do nothing out of spite while allowing Rome to burn. It's easy to blame someone else and the WSCA is an easy target. The idea that contractors are getting rich is a pipe dream. Look around and you'll see that most of the good contractors who have all been tarred with the same brush by B-Dawg, have been in this business for more than 20 years. They're sure taking their time getting rich. I'll guarantee you that if they'd spent their time in the government's service, they'd have a whole lot more stuff and a bigger healthier pension than they do through many years of planting contracting.
We planters have no long view. We may love our job (or not) when we're out there pounding but when the season's over, we forget about it and think not a wit about what we might do to protect and enhance our future prospects. We've tried many times to organize from the days of the PRWA in the late seventies through today where all attempts at organizing ourselves seem to have completely died. It's a sign of the general apathy of today's society. Everything seems such a mess that why bother doing anything? I for one am at least willing to follow a link, sign a petition and spread the word. I suggest that B-Dawg should quit whining and blaming and do something positive.
We planters have no long view. We may love our job (or not) when we're out there pounding but when the season's over, we forget about it and think not a wit about what we might do to protect and enhance our future prospects. We've tried many times to organize from the days of the PRWA in the late seventies through today where all attempts at organizing ourselves seem to have completely died. It's a sign of the general apathy of today's society. Everything seems such a mess that why bother doing anything? I for one am at least willing to follow a link, sign a petition and spread the word. I suggest that B-Dawg should quit whining and blaming and do something positive.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Thanks Coaster, I think you hit on some good points there. It also bears to mention that contractors take the bulk of the risk in the industry, and more than a few of them have lost their shirt. I think of the late Kevin McClaurin that got left holding the bag when the woodlot he planted for went belly-up. Kevin paid his planters what he owed them, and after 20+ years in the business he was hardly what I would call a rich man. There are definitely some contractors that have done well, but a lot of them live in modest houses and wear blue jeans like the rest of us.
That being said, I don't want to throw B-Dawg under the bus altogether, because I think the quality of his greivance is well-founded. The job is tremendously taxing, and many planters come away with very little for their herculean efforts, and many pay high physical tolls. I think the musculoskeletal aspect of the job, and the ingrained patterns of unhealthy movement that we acquire as we plant have longer lasting affects than many realize. We may not be dying from chemicals, but I agree with B-dawg that there are a lot of x-planters out there with hunched shoulders, tight backs, and gibbled hips. I think B-dawg made a good point in that respect and I just want to make sure I respect what some of what he offered, even though I disagree with his overall analysis.
I think the failure of silviculture workers to organize is largely due to their position in the industry, and the short-term mentality that comes with working shortened work seasons with many people only staying for a few years. People simply have too many other emphases in life to attend to other than planting, and many do not plan on staying long enough to rally up. Even those that do make a career of it, often have other activities in the off-season and live prepared to jump ship if the industry goes farther down the tube. THis is structural as much as it is a matter of commitment and organizational culture.
Meanwhile the WSCA is a structural constant. It at least offers some form of a stable structure through which planters may actually be able to express their will and opinions. It is hooked up politically, and regardless of anti-collusion laws, it does exert some measure of influence on planting prices by bringing contractors together to work face-to-face. Ultimately, it is a little harder to really screw someone when you have to look across the table at them a month later. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is a bit harder at least. It also has links to the media at both the local and provincial level, and has a seat at the table with other forestry associations. THese are linkages that workers can potentially use to their advantage. Moreover, the WSCA seems open to worker input, and has proven to be willing to respond to their concerns and engage in dialogue. When the CREWS initiative occured in the mid-90s (Canadian Reforestation and Environmental WOrkers SOciety), it received extensive support from many members within the WSCA.
Nonetheless, organizing planters may be an exercise in futility without money to make it happen, and more importantly without the workers having a longer term outlook or a wider perspective on the industry. Therefore, (and I hate to suggest it's some form of consolation option), the WSCA offers one of the few avenues through which workers can connect with the industry on a higher level. I think there is a knee-jerk worker reaction to resist the employer. If you put someone in a truck and tell them what to do on a daily basis, they will naturally come to see you as the source of control to which one must resist. We naturally look at the person telling us what to do in the same room, without always attending to who is running the house, or in the case the whole block.
That being said, I don't want to throw B-Dawg under the bus altogether, because I think the quality of his greivance is well-founded. The job is tremendously taxing, and many planters come away with very little for their herculean efforts, and many pay high physical tolls. I think the musculoskeletal aspect of the job, and the ingrained patterns of unhealthy movement that we acquire as we plant have longer lasting affects than many realize. We may not be dying from chemicals, but I agree with B-dawg that there are a lot of x-planters out there with hunched shoulders, tight backs, and gibbled hips. I think B-dawg made a good point in that respect and I just want to make sure I respect what some of what he offered, even though I disagree with his overall analysis.
I think the failure of silviculture workers to organize is largely due to their position in the industry, and the short-term mentality that comes with working shortened work seasons with many people only staying for a few years. People simply have too many other emphases in life to attend to other than planting, and many do not plan on staying long enough to rally up. Even those that do make a career of it, often have other activities in the off-season and live prepared to jump ship if the industry goes farther down the tube. THis is structural as much as it is a matter of commitment and organizational culture.
Meanwhile the WSCA is a structural constant. It at least offers some form of a stable structure through which planters may actually be able to express their will and opinions. It is hooked up politically, and regardless of anti-collusion laws, it does exert some measure of influence on planting prices by bringing contractors together to work face-to-face. Ultimately, it is a little harder to really screw someone when you have to look across the table at them a month later. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is a bit harder at least. It also has links to the media at both the local and provincial level, and has a seat at the table with other forestry associations. THese are linkages that workers can potentially use to their advantage. Moreover, the WSCA seems open to worker input, and has proven to be willing to respond to their concerns and engage in dialogue. When the CREWS initiative occured in the mid-90s (Canadian Reforestation and Environmental WOrkers SOciety), it received extensive support from many members within the WSCA.
Nonetheless, organizing planters may be an exercise in futility without money to make it happen, and more importantly without the workers having a longer term outlook or a wider perspective on the industry. Therefore, (and I hate to suggest it's some form of consolation option), the WSCA offers one of the few avenues through which workers can connect with the industry on a higher level. I think there is a knee-jerk worker reaction to resist the employer. If you put someone in a truck and tell them what to do on a daily basis, they will naturally come to see you as the source of control to which one must resist. We naturally look at the person telling us what to do in the same room, without always attending to who is running the house, or in the case the whole block.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
I have worked in almost all areas of the forest industry from the nursery to logging to the sawmill and back to planting. The industry if fucked, plain and simple. I think a complete colapse would be the best thing to wake people up. We need better, more sustainable forestry practices where the people who do the hard work get paid for doing a good job. These days I feel like a fucking disposable slave, where is the appretiation for all the good, hard, well thought out work I have done?
I hope the fuckers that have ruined our industry and raped our land die a thousand horrible deaths!
I hope the fuckers that have ruined our industry and raped our land die a thousand horrible deaths!
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
If we're going to point the fickle finger of blame at someone, let's at least not point it within our own ranks - unless it's merited. I agree that the system's to blame. Big business and big unions and big government, all of then with no long term view are the culprits. Short term re-election and short term profits drive our society. We can all sit back and enjoy the highest standard of living in the world and still find many faults with it.
The tenure system that dominates our forest economy is basically flawed, giving control of mini kingdoms to multi national companies that exist purely to line their shareholders pockets with gold. Our politicians care little for those who give the sweat off their backs to earn an honest buck reforesting the cashblocks left behind by the corporations.
Rodney Dangerfield couldn't get no respect and what little we as planters have earned is grudgingly given. It took many years to open the eyes of logggers to the fact that we work harder in most cases than they do.
The decline in prices and therefore in our wages over the past few years is not a result of greedy contractors but is a result of politicians realizing that they won't win many votes by planting trees. It's just about that simple. Until the public insists that reforestation is a priority, there will be an oversupply of planters and contractors and that inevitably leads to lower prices.
The tenure system that dominates our forest economy is basically flawed, giving control of mini kingdoms to multi national companies that exist purely to line their shareholders pockets with gold. Our politicians care little for those who give the sweat off their backs to earn an honest buck reforesting the cashblocks left behind by the corporations.
Rodney Dangerfield couldn't get no respect and what little we as planters have earned is grudgingly given. It took many years to open the eyes of logggers to the fact that we work harder in most cases than they do.
The decline in prices and therefore in our wages over the past few years is not a result of greedy contractors but is a result of politicians realizing that they won't win many votes by planting trees. It's just about that simple. Until the public insists that reforestation is a priority, there will be an oversupply of planters and contractors and that inevitably leads to lower prices.
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forestwhore
- Regular Contributor
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:17 am
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
jordan you seem removed from the workers and attached to the ass of the owners. i don't know any silviculture workers that respect you or your ideas. you request support from the workers but only have retaliatory comments. you seem bourgeois. i don't know the solution of the problem with silviculture industry. you also seem to be possible politician material. if you can get wages up 25% across the industry, i will shake your hand personally and slap you on the back. and maybe even tell you that you did a good job.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Nice personal attack. It's convenient that you have very little to offer for others to critique. Let's see...I volunteer my personal time (probably to the tune of a few hundred hours per year) to work with the industry on various issues, including attending to the treatment of workers. I attend conferences (unpaid) and lobby for better safety practices. I have suggested development of whistle-blower resources for workers that are unfairly treated (and received green light on this), supported and participated in research on pesticides, and drawn attention to problems in regulation and policy. I have had workers call me at home to ask for advice on WorkSafeBC issues. I have attempted to develop a worker's organization on my own time (no financial support) in order to provide workers with a cohesive voice before the industry. I’d love it if some full-time planters would step up and take over the initiative. The shell is there; just fill it with workers. Doesn't really smell like ass-kissing from where I'm standing, how’s your view from where your head is at? I'm not meaning to brag, just stating the facts. What have you done lately? I like what I do, and take some satisfaction in working towards what I feel are worthy goals. Sorry to sound self-righteous, but I'd like to think I'm not wasting my time. I could certainly use it earning money. One angry ranter is hardly going to deter me.forestwhore wrote:jordan you seem removed from the workers and attached to the ass of the owners. i don't know any silviculture workers that respect you or your ideas. you request support from the workers but only have retaliatory comments. you seem bourgeois. i don't know the solution of the problem with silviculture industry. you also seem to be possible politician material. if you can get wages up 25% across the industry, i will shake your hand personally and slap you on the back. and maybe even tell you that you did a good job.
Maybe I should cut you a bit of slack here, as I don’t know you (mr or mrs. Pseudonym) and maybe you don’t know me very well. I can imagine that a worker who busts their ass on a daily basis (alluding to you) might understandably get your hackles up when you see someone suggesting that there might be a field of common interest between planters and contractors, all the while you are slaving away for just one such contractor. I’ve tried to state my perspective on why the industry would benefit from contractors and workers cooperating politically (to some extent, not in any measure of servitude not already established). I can understand that if you had not read many previous posts very thoroughly, you might jump to the conclusions you have. Perhaps what I should be hearing in your post is that you are a person that works your fingers to the bone, and you are frustrated with the continuing decline in the conditions of your job. You are also frustrated that more has not been done (by others) to better your predicament. You are therefore sceptical that anyone claiming to be on your side is actually doing enough. I hear and understand the frustration, and again emphasize that the dissatisfaction of the workers (including yourself) is well-founded. However, I think your assessment of my role is inaccurate. Unfortunately, I can only try to lead the proverbial horse to where I think there may be water, and a few slings and arrows are not the worst I get to face.
Anyways, enough being nice, let's get your points straight here. My comments are retaliatory? Sorry, Reading and Comprehension 101- I start the conversations most of the time. That is being proactive, not reactive. When others comment, I give feedback and make sure to give support to what I think are good points even if I disagree with some of what they say. You are a hypocrite, as you do none of this, and fire anonymous snipes from your pseuodnym. That's not a personal attack, just a statement of fact. Don't like it? Step up, offer some good ideas, and drop the anonymous attack BS. We all hoped that stuff died with canadiantreeplanter dot com.
You say you don’t know one planter that respects me? Well, I’ve never had anyone say so to my face or by name..including you. I put a lot of value in what people say to my face, and from their real name. I put myself out in the open by name, and have nothing to hide. No pseudonym, no anonymous attacks. What you see is what you get.
You'd shake my hand if I could raise wages by 25%? Wow, what a reward! And how might one person do that? Cesar Chavez never had such success. Should I sacrifice my entire life and career to earn your handshake and a backslap? I am focused on what I think are accomplishable incremental gains. Did you not notice that nobody pays me to do this? I think advocating for your safety, and spending time supporting initiatives that I think are better for the industry (workers and employers alike) is about as much effort as I can afford right now. I don't even expect your handshake as a reward. A little bit of intelligent conversation would be thanks enough, rather than this baseless spew.
I'm not sure why I really waste my time responding here. I almost regret writing this, because I feel like it's horn-tooting, but I'm not going to let such an obvious challenge pass by unanswered. I'm pretty comfortable with my reputation. But, I guess I take things personally a lot of the time, which is why your post rubbed me the wrong way. Coincidentally, taking things personally is largely why I remain active in the industry in the capacity that I do. I love planting, and I have close relationships with many of the people I spent my 15 years of planting with. I hope this thread can get back to the original trajectory now.
Good luck with your season, stay safe, green side up.
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forestwhore
- Regular Contributor
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:17 am
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
jordan. the workers have retaliatory remarks here. not you. you talk and type too much. honestly i hope that you do some good for the industry.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
You're right Jordan, you shouldn't take that posting too seriously. Anyone with a pseudonym like forestwhore obviously has issues and a fatalistic opinion of themselves and their profession. Some people might just view it as another blowjob by forestwhore.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Thanks FW, apologies if I was set off, I have a tendency to rant. You're right about the talking and typing. Whether or not one does good can be impossible to measure. We can only do what we think will help. I will take away from your post that there is yet another worker that is pretty unhappy with the direction of change in the industry. This is important.forestwhore wrote:jordan. the workers have retaliatory remarks here. not you. you talk and type too much. honestly i hope that you do some good for the industry.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
OK I know almost nothing about the forests of northwest North America as I have never been there. I did finish second once for a job in Colorado with their state level forestry agency, doing mountain pine beetle surveys actually. If I had gotten that job my life would be completely different today.
Anyhow through this website I have seen a lot of concern and some good effort put in trying to raise awareness of the mountain pine beetle and what is happening in the woods where a lot of y'all are. My question is this ... I thought the ever increasing beetle infestations were a symptom of global warming? How would replanting the same species that the beetle loves to chew on help fix the problem? Won't species composition begin to change naturally as temperatures rise? Would Quaking Aspen (Populus tremuloides) move further north in the Rockies?
And has anyone reading this worked with P. tremuloides as a seedling? It is an interesting challenge to get that seed and grow it, but is something I like to work on and we planted a few thousand Populus spp. seedlings six weeks ago. I don't want to change the thread to be one about Aspen though.
One other tangential comment ... the age-old complaint that the boss is rich and the worker gets screwed always comes from people who haven't considered the years and years of low-paid 80+ hours weeks it takes to become a successful contractor. The only way to get there is to work, work, work your way on up. It's a free country.....anyone can try it.
Anyhow through this website I have seen a lot of concern and some good effort put in trying to raise awareness of the mountain pine beetle and what is happening in the woods where a lot of y'all are. My question is this ... I thought the ever increasing beetle infestations were a symptom of global warming? How would replanting the same species that the beetle loves to chew on help fix the problem? Won't species composition begin to change naturally as temperatures rise? Would Quaking Aspen (Populus tremuloides) move further north in the Rockies?
And has anyone reading this worked with P. tremuloides as a seedling? It is an interesting challenge to get that seed and grow it, but is something I like to work on and we planted a few thousand Populus spp. seedlings six weeks ago. I don't want to change the thread to be one about Aspen though.
One other tangential comment ... the age-old complaint that the boss is rich and the worker gets screwed always comes from people who haven't considered the years and years of low-paid 80+ hours weeks it takes to become a successful contractor. The only way to get there is to work, work, work your way on up. It's a free country.....anyone can try it.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
I heard a rumor that the Central Interior Logging Association is one source willing to make that claim, I'm sure there will be others to followsalbrecher wrote:Anyone know what source (other than Tchida) the claim that 3-6 million ha of beetle kill trees will not
regenerate naturally comes from? I'm skeptical of this.
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
Only the tip of the iceburg is being seen, in this area there are 30 year old blocks being cut down because of disease.newforest wrote: Anyhow through this website I have seen a lot of concern and some good effort put in trying to raise awareness of the mountain pine beetle and what is happening in the woods where a lot of y'all are. My question is this ... I thought the ever increasing beetle infestations were a symptom of global warming? How would replanting the same species that the beetle loves to chew on help fix the problem? Won't species composition begin to change naturally as temperatures rise? Would Quaking Aspen (Populus tremuloides) move further north in the Rockies?
Re: All Silviculture Workers- forest action
not to many 100% pine blocks being planted anymore, soooooooo.....ekim wrote:Only the tip of the iceburg is being seen, in this area there are 30 year old blocks being cut down because of disease.newforest wrote: Anyhow through this website I have seen a lot of concern and some good effort put in trying to raise awareness of the mountain pine beetle and what is happening in the woods where a lot of y'all are. My question is this ... I thought the ever increasing beetle infestations were a symptom of global warming? How would replanting the same species that the beetle loves to chew on help fix the problem? Won't species composition begin to change naturally as temperatures rise? Would Quaking Aspen (Populus tremuloides) move further north in the Rockies?
Not to mention that the beetle was helped along, ya know with the thousands upon thousands of logging trucks giving the beetle a free ride all over, anyone ever notice that all the mills were the hardest hit a few years back, look at Bear Lake or Dunkley by Hixon, anyone notice all the missing forests, global warming didn't cause this disaster as much as human greed did