2011 Public Bid Results

[bush]

^BEST post yet! ^

[joeeco]

wow, if there is one post to describe "2011 bid results" it's yours for sure...The last couple years I've been reminded more and more of planting in ontario. I'm banking on a improvement this season and thankfully I'm not associated with the companies bidding in 2011 even though I have experienced a 20% pay decrease over the last 2 seasons. Let's hope it's only improving...

[Mike]

I just planted part of a BCTS contract out of Vanderhoof with Folklore; which of those BCTS contracts posted are most likely to encapsulate the Vanderhoof work?

[Coaster]

I guess it's time to get back into planting for the fall. I see there haven't been any posts regarding bid results for the fall so here goes. Most of the summer and fall planting on the coast is done by private logging companies and those results are hard to come by. Rumor has it that Osprey and Wagner were low bidders on most of the Timberwest work for this fall and also next spring. You've probably seen reference to Osprey's Criag's List ad elsewhere in these forums. Their claim of having good prices is contradicted by the fact that they were the low bidder out of a dozen contractors.

Here's the few BCTS bid results that are available through BC Bid.

BCTS - Powell River - Jervis Inlet - 96,400 extremely nasty heli trees
Interestingly enough 1/2 of this job was abandoned by Khaira last year. Yes there are only 2 bidders!

Rainforest - $139,044.00 - $1.44 per tree
Osprey - $176,284.80 - $1.83

BCTS - Campbell River - East & West Coast - 530,000 trees + 174,000 T-Bags

Fieldstone - $330,420.00 - 62.3 cents
Evergreen - $392,570.00 - 74.0

Again - just 2 bids!

I've called a few logging companies as a planter looking to find out who's working for them. They are mostly pretty helpful. Here's what I've learned;

Interfor has Brinkman, Evergreen, Impact & Rainforest working in the inlets. Island Timberlands has Brinkman doing most of their work in the mid Island with Timberline in the north. Woss is Brinkman as always. Bivouac is busy in the north Island. Western has Lukwa, Evergreen and Saltspring already working around Sayward. Timberline will be planting for Timberwest Campbell River along with Osprey.

For those of you looking for work you are probably too late already but you never know there could be a revolving door for some of these jobs. It would seem from the results I've heard that some contractors continued to bid low and took most of the early opening bids like Timberwest. Prices then started going up and by the end as illustrated by the BCTS Campbell River bid with only 2 bidders, prices were climbing. Here's hoping this trend continues. Remember that we have the power to remind contractors that it's not okay to bid low and pay poorly - by voting with our feet! Good luck out there this season!

[Coaster]

I just planted part of a BCTS contract out of Vanderhoof with Folklore; which of those BCTS contracts posted are most likely to encapsulate the Vanderhoof work?

Mike - sorry I didn't see your question until now. Below is the most likely job from Vanderhoof this spring.

677,500 trees which would make Folklore's bid 23 cents.


E.L.F. Silviculture Ltd, 153,816.00
Spectrum Resource Group Inc, 155,299.00
Folklore Contracting Ltd, 156,042.18
Dewan Enterprises Ltd, 157,720.00
Seneca Enterprises Ltd, 165,233.60
AKD Reforestation Ltd, 166,076.80
Artisan Reforestation Ltd, 166,750.10
Dynamic Reforestation Ltd, 166,864.39
Apex Reforestation Ltd, 170,131.80
Rhino Reforestation Services Inc, 173,755.91
Brinkman & Associates Reforestation Ltd, 179,761.70
Celtic Reforestation Services Ltd, 179,851.20
Next Generation Reforestation Ltd, 187,972.20

[Scooter]

Yeah, let's keep Fall 2011 work in this thread. I'll start a fresh thread later for the 2012 work.

[Duncan]

Thanks for the warning McD. Perhaps you know something I don't but when we viewed that job, it was 96% mounded or trenched. Last time I checked screefing mounds was out of fashion. I agree though that it is a very ceompetetive bid that may have to be subsidized. If Brinkman ever dropped that BCTS Arrow job (the one you referred to as Kootenay Lake) and Greenpeaks followed suit then we could pass on Merritt.

Soooooo, not to start anything but when I read this I couldn't resist. Uh, Evergreen, some of your planters in Merritt never saw anything but screefing. Guess they missed the 96% trenches and mounds... but screefing sure isn't out of fashion around Merritt.

But before you blame the weather and change of blocks lets compare prices. You were paying your planters the same tree price for raw that the previous contractor paid for trenches and mounds. So, overall the reduction in prices for this contract from 2009 to 2011 was about 25 %. I would say that is a tad bit on the competitive side, but what was the subsidy - an extra cent on the 7 day shift? When I heard that one I laughed, still am!

Just thought that was something you should know Evergreen...

[Evergreen]

Duncan - You make some very good points regarding our Merritt job. Every once in a long while we end up with a dog - Merritt was our dog of the decade and we're not proud of it. Our viewer was out to lunch when it came to what was actually out there on the ground. Our interior season was 25% of what it was in 2010 and so we felt we had to take Merritt even though we knew it was underbid - we just didn't know by how much. We raised the planter prices by an average of 2 cents and the crew averaged $225. While that's nothing to be proud of, it wasn't too bad. We took a substantial loss in the thousands of dollars.

This contract is a 3 year renewable and the negotiation for 2012 is yet to happen. I doubt MOF will agree to the 10 cent increase that this job will have to have in order to pay people a reasonable & competetive wage in 2012. So it will likely be retendered

[bush]

$225 crew average is HORRIBLE.

[jdtesluk]

Duncan - You make some very good points regarding our Merritt job. Every once in a long while we end up with a dog - Merritt was our dog of the decade and we're not proud of it. Our viewer was out to lunch when it came to what was actually out there on the ground. Our interior season was 25% of what it was in 2010 and so we felt we had to take Merritt even though we knew it was underbid - we just didn't know by how much. We raised the planter prices by an average of 2 cents and the crew averaged $225. While that's nothing to be proud of, it wasn't too bad. We took a substantial loss in the thousands of dollars.

This contract is a 3 year renewable and the negotiation for 2012 is yet to happen. I doubt MOF will agree to the 10 cent increase that this job will have to have in order to pay people a reasonable & competetive wage in 2012. So it will likely be retendered

Regardless of your opinion on the job, we seldom (if ever) get this level of information directly from contractors. It shows a few things, including the risks and pressures facing the contractor, as well as a level of openness that other contractors could take notes from.

[Duncan]

Regardless of your opinion on the job, we seldom (if ever) get this level of information directly from contractors. It shows a few things, including the risks and pressures facing the contractor, as well as a level of openness that other contractors could take notes from.

totally agreed, and I believe I've posted that towards Evergreen before. I appreciate his contribution. That said, I was a little dismayed after reading this forum and having worked of the contract in the past and knowing people who did it this year. Merritt is a tough area to plant trees and having overly competitive bids in the area is double-trouble.

$225 crew average is HORRIBLE.

Depends on the crew...
On coastal contracts the last few years it was probably not bad (still horrible though), but in Evergreen's defense - early rumors are one of his contracts on the coast is paying out pretty nicely!

[Mike]

$225 crew average is HORRIBLE.

In 4 seasons, with 5 companies, I think I have only once planted in a camp where the camp average was higher than that, and then, not by much.

[Evergreen]

$225 a day is nothing to be proud of that's for sure although we generally don't get a much higher average overall for a full season. It definitely depends on the crew and where you're working. The coast has sucked for the large part over the last few years and that has kept our average down in the $240 range for a full year. We expect coast crews to see an increase in wages for 2012 but that has yet to play out as most work hasn't been bid yet. The increase in volume for 2012 on the coast is in the 22% range. That should translate into higher wages overall.

TimberWest bid out it's Vancouver Island work for 2012 already and most of us who have been working there raised our prices and consequently have no work with them. That includes us, Brinkman and others. Those that did get work there may feel cozy about it now but could have a hard time recruiting planters at 2011 rates.

Quite a few people who plant the east coast of the Island do so from home. There has long been the feeling that people who work from home are willing to take a lower wage, but really working from home can actually be more pain than gain. How much time do you really have to enjoy being home? I suppose that's a topic in itself.

Merritt was a serious learning experience for us as we had not worked there for a long time, doing most of our work on the coast and in the West Kootenays and Boundary. I'm happy to say none of those areas ask planters to be human rototillers. Planting big screef jobs is questionable at any price as it wears people out and generates WCB claims which cost contractors directly.

It sounds like some of you know Merritt well and the screefing required on non prepped ground. What price per tree do you need to get there to do well?

[bush]

minimum .18c .....that's respectable

[b-dawg]

1) How do these Jokers manage to staff their companies and complete jobs while maintaining that kind of unacceptable average wage?
Are there really that many suckers out there willing to work that hard for $225/day???? Even making twice that much-----a more 'acceptable' compensation-----is really still not enough relative to the type of exertion/wear-and-tear that planters put themselves through.


2) If you're paying planters in the 'teens in Merritt, your not payin' enough. Especially if you're interested in getting planters to satisfy the quality requirements that the Clients have in that area.

[Mike]

Are there really that many suckers out there willing to work that hard for $225/day???? Even making twice that much-----a more 'acceptable' compensation-----is really still not enough relative to the type of exertion/wear-and-tear that planters put themselves through.

I would hazard the guess that a majority (60-80%) do precisely that. If I recall correctly; I at one point heard a study that found the average planter in had 2.8 years of experience and planted 1500 trees a day, making ~200$ a day. That was a few years back.

[Coaster]

1) How do these Jokers manage to staff their companies and complete jobs while maintaining that kind of unacceptable average wage?
Are there really that many suckers out there willing to work that hard for $225/day???? Even making twice that much-----a more 'acceptable' compensation-----is really still not enough relative to the type of exertion/wear-and-tear that planters put themselves through.

I'm not sure what fantasy planting world you live in but if you can earn twice $250/day or expect a crew to average that, be kind enough to share with us all where you can do that. That works out to over $50 per hour - sure the top few planters can and should make that but to expect a crew to average that means you've been spending too much time with the bong. Those jokers you're referring to are among the better ones to work for.

[b-dawg]

ummmmmm, maybe more time spent with the bong would help you to patiently focus, and understand the words you're reading--- before giving a shotgun response, Coaster.

You read a lot of points into my statement that just aren't there.

In the interest of clarity, let me explain what the statement is really saying:

"Even making twice that much [2 x $225 = $450] -----a more 'acceptable' compensation----is really still not enough relative to the type of exertion/wear-and-tear that planters put themselves through."

All I'm saying here, is that even when you are making the kind of money that the 'top few planters can and should make', it still ain't worth the degradation to the body that is incurred during such high-impact labour. In other words, even when the financial compensation being received is in the very highest percentile of what is possible for a planter, it is still too little. No amount of $450 days can ever make up for the type of chronic pain and problems that inevitably catch-up with a planter who's been in the game for enough years. Capeesh??

Can you put a dollar-amount on having functional knees and lower back beyond the age of 40?

shit, we dont' even know the extent of long-term issues that the human body faces after enough years of the type of impact incurred from the kind of high-production planting that is now commonplace.

So then, to do it for the ludicrously low daily wage of $225 is just that much more insane. And the gut-wrenching part is that there's probably a bunch more companies out there with an even lower ludicrously low daily wage.


I've got no problems telling it like it is, so while we're calling a Spade a Spade........ I wouldn't put Evergreen anywhere near 'among the better ones to work for' as you say.
I know that they have a reputation from way back in the day of being a solid outfit (certainly in the days when it was a Co-op I'm sure it lived-up to it's reputation), but now...?
I worked with them a good 7 or 8 years back on some Coastal contracts, and it was safe and well-organized but definitely below average as far as wages were concerned. And word from all the friends I've spoken to who've worked with them since, is that prices have only gone downhill.
I'm sure that could be said for a lot of companies, regardless of their past or present reputation...... BUT, low wages are low wages; and the labour should never find that acceptable. No matter what the reputation of the company signing the cheques.

[mwainwright]

there you go. "b-dawg" has hit the nail on the head. nobody averaging 225 a day is coming out of a season with enough in the bank. not these days anyhow.

[bush]

good response BDAWG

[Mike]

there you go. "b-dawg" has hit the nail on the head. nobody averaging 225 a day is coming out of a season with enough in the bank. not these days anyhow.

What percentage of the industry do you think is not making "enough"?

[Scooter]

99%

[Coaster]

Thanks for the clarification B-Dawg. I just couldn't read all that into your last post. Certainly not interested in Merritt grass screefing for any price let alone in the teens. I agree it's worth lots more to punish your body that much.

I'm still not sure where you think all these crews are that are making upwards of $250/day. From what I've seen it's the exception not the rule. So who do we have in the southern interior and coast that are considered good companies paying over $250/day? Zanzibar, Bivouac, Sitka, Fieldstone? That's 4 probablys. These are high production crews too.

[Scooter]

I think one problem is that when comparing averages, nobody except the accountants know the true daily averages. And if you look at what a typical planter assumes is the daily average of a group, that's probably about 20% higher (or more) than the official numbers. You have to average all full days, and some planters say, "well, we only worked for a few hours that day, so let's leave that out."

And what about the breakdown of averages for vets versus rookies? On the coast, that's completely irrelevant. But in the interior, that's key info.

So for example, I could have a season where the overall daily average per man-day for the entire camp, entire summer, is $215. But yet I have contracts that average $195 and contracts that average $235. And that's affected in large part by the rookies if I have a year with a significant (more than 15%) component of rookies, because they'll drag May and (to a lesser extent) June averages down tremendously. So if you factor out the rookies (which in my opinion, you can NOT do if you want to get a true interior average) you might have averages of $250 in the spring and $310 in the summer. And if you look at May averages, including rookies, you might get an average for a "decent" camp in the $170 range, which is terrible (unless you're a vet, in which case, that number is not useful).

So when you look at all the numbers that I threw out in that last paragraph, it's hard to get a true accurate picture of a company, because in one season, ALL of those numbers could be 100% accurate. And even in a camp where the season average is $215, you might have vets that average around $350+ for the season.

I think there should be some standard out there, like "An average should consist of the average full earnings per day of all experienced planters on a contract, factoring in part days." But then again, only the accountants and a few of the management staff would really know those numbers. And management wouldn't want to share that info.

[Tnalp]

good post Dawg... comparatively speaking a labour job in the patch at 20 to 25 $ an hour works out to over 300 - 350 per day! 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Planting wages are way over rated!! As far as companies that have "higher" averages. there are a bunch of them out there.

[Scooter]

Does anyone here know of any oil patch jobs that pay in that range $350 for someone willing to work 12 hour days? Good driving record, significant driving experience on Alberta roads, OFA3 certification (working towards Alberta EMR at the present).

Actually, I'm curious about contacts for forestry work too, that pays higher-scale stuff, particularly starting any time after mid-November. My resume is a bit more solid for forestry than for the patch. Have chain saw, will travel.

[Scooter]

Seriously, I don't see a lot of work advertised online for general labourers in the patch for that sort of daily rate. Which is ridiculous, since I know it has to be out there. Maybe they don't advertise work like that online because too many retards apply.

[Mike]

I think there should be some standard out there, like "An average should consist of the average full earnings per day of all experienced planters on a contract, factoring in part days." But then again, only the accountants and a few of the management staff would really know those numbers. And management wouldn't want to share that info.

And perhaps a planter who is paying attention to everything, talking to everyone, and very very carefully gathering as much data as possible about 1) What the camp is planting each day + 2) What the tree price averages are.

Perhaps enough to get close.

[Scooter]

True, but if you worked on a contract and figured that out and if the numbers were respectable, would you want to post that info if you were planning to plant for the same company again the next year? Let's say that you had a contract where the planters averaged $250 per day. If you let that be known (not that it's a stellar average), then your company's competitors are likely to hear about it, and that's going to be like blood in the water for a pack of sharks. So your company loses the contract for the next year to competitors who are underbidding it based on your own shared info, and you go back to work for the same company which now just has shittier contracts.

Far-fetched, perhaps, but still possible ...

[sghyselincks]

I think a lot of information about averages can be extrapolated by a planter by knowing

1 Total # of trees on a given contract
2 Total # of planters (take into account people who may have left early
3 Average tree price
4 Total production days

You can figure out the daily average by dividing total trees by total planters = average total trees / planter

Then multiply that by your average tree price = average total earnings

Divide by total production days (try to include half days, putting on wet boots is work) to get average daily earnings.

I should add that sharing wage information doesn't need to negatively affect a company in terms of competition. If a company can advertise competitive wages, higher production planters will be attracted to plant there which is an asset that reduces overhead costs for a company, increasing the percentage of a bid price than can be passed on to the planters, thus attracting even more experienced planters to apply for work.

[Mike]

True, but if you worked on a contract and figured that out and if the numbers were respectable, would you want to post that info if you were planning to plant for the same company again the next year? Let's say that you had a contract where the planters averaged $250 per day. If you let that be known (not that it's a stellar average), then your company's competitors are likely to hear about it, and that's going to be like blood in the water for a pack of sharks. So your company loses the contract for the next year to competitors who are underbidding it based on your own shared info, and you go back to work for the same company which now just has shittier contracts.

Far-fetched, perhaps, but still possible ...

What if the average is say, closer to 200$? Do you think other companies would still try to drive that bid price lower, and that people would work for them?

[Scooter]

What if the average is say, closer to 200$? Do you think other companies would still try to drive that bid price lower, and that people would work for them?

Unfortunately, yes. Because they can compare the averages that they know at their own company. I think averages are almost always lower than people expect, because of part days and slower planters and sick days. So if you have a contract where you've got the camp averaging $200 per day, and you know that the company has about 40% rookies, then you can probably assume that the vets are averaging closer to $250. If if they're doing that, then companies are going to pursue it.

This board is really useful for planters, for a lot of reasons, but I kind of cringe when people talk about what they earned on a contract or what their best days were. It has so much potential for backfiring in the long run and hurting planters.

[Evergreen]

This continued from the Osprey Hiring thread;

Coaster said -

As I said before, those that filled up with low bids early in the bidding this season didn't read the market very well. There are still lots of cheap trees out there especially in the south Island.

This thread is hardly the place to carry on with this discussion. If anyone wants to continue it perhaps we can move it over to the 2011 bid results thread.

Evergreen Wrote;

Re the BCTS Campbell River job - We wanted this one as it fit into a time slot that would work well for us. We have a crew in Sayward already and they could flow right in to the BCTS work. We bid to pay mid to high twenties for initials. What also may have been the difference is that what we did see of the blocks showed very difficult access with lots of walking and quadding. Some of the blocks that were advertized as drive to were only so if you need your bumpers and undercarriage rearranged. There was a small component of boat to & then fly in. This job requires staying in Gold River, Sayward, Woss and Zeballos. Fieldstone may do well and so may the planters but the logistics and access called for caution. We felt the market allowed for high prices both for planters and for us. With 2012 promising to be a very competetive year for attracting the best planters we felt that we would be best served by sending people home at the end of the fall season with fond memories.

[Tnalp]

Good on you Evergreen!!