2012 Public Bid Results

[Scooter]

To start off, links to previous season bid summary threads:

2010: http://www.replant.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64666
2011: http://www.replant.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65035

Here we go, starting the season off with what could be a new record!

Summit, in an entirely unfathomable move, has "taken" the first contract for BCTS Vanderhoof, a one-year contract at slightly over a million trees. I won't say that they "won" the bid, because as was pointed out recently by a few planters I was working with, anyone who is the low bidder at these prices should not be associated with "winning."

In this first bid, the bids were as follows:

01. Summit - $205,237 (20.1 cents)
02. Apex - $254,584 (24.9 cents)
03. NGR - $256,852 (25.1 cents)
04. Windfirm - $263,569 (25.8 cents)
05. Rhino - $265,313 (26.0 cents)
06. Folklore - $280,363 (27.4 cents)
07. Dynamic - $286,786 (28.1 cents)
08. AKD - $314,949 (30.8 cents)
09. Artisan - $315,653 (30.9 cents)
10. Seneca - $320,414 (31.4 cents)
11. Coast Range - $351,519 (34.4 cents)
12. Celtic - $351,768 (34.4 cents)
13. Blue Collar - $367,200 (35.9 cents)
14. Spectrum - $397,952 (38.9 cents)

At 1.022m trees, this works out to just under 20.1 cents per tree. Summit accepted.

If you want to figure out planter prices, this of course varies from company to company. I would estimate that the average payout would be 40% of bid price to the planter. Before thinking, "Wow, that leaves 60% profit for the contractor," slow down. There are a ton of extra payroll costs. Look at it this way:
- You need to add about 20% (of planter price) on top for supervision (ie. for foremen and supervisors), which brings that 40% (of total bid price) up to 50%.
- You need to add about 4% more for checkers or tree runners, which brings that 50% up to 52%.
- You need to add payroll taxes. The employer must contribute the same (or more) than the employee does, to EI, CPP, WCB, etc. So add another 11% of the employees' wages and that brings your total wage component up to probably almost 60% of the bid price.

Therefore, about 40% of the bid price is left over for all other overhead and profits. This has to cover:
- Vehicles. Trucks are probably about $12,000 to $15,000 each per season, between depreciation/leasing, maintenance, repairs, fuel, and insurance. A camp with 10 trucks probably spends $100,000 (in a good year) to $150,000 or more in a season, just on keeping the vehicles running.
- Camp/motel. Camp costs do not cover all the costs of running a camp, by any means. What planters pay for camp costs contributes to the daily food budget and the cooks' wages, but that doesn't cover all of these costs, plus there is the cost of maintenance/replacement on camp structures and equipment, fuel/propane, etc.
- Accounting. Someone has to get paid to do the payroll, do all the invoicing/expenses, submit tax reports, etc.

And of course there is a lot more. So I don't mean to get derailed here from the original point of the bid prices, but I think that 40% going directly to the planters is approximately correct. I don't know that for sure (I don't see bid prices at my own company) but based on general experience and discussions with half a dozen different contractors, that seems to be in the ballpark.

[Scooter]

So let's look at the bids above. Why would Summit accept this job? Looking at the bid sheet, they have to be concerned that they left about fifty grand on the table. They could have bid $254,583 (had they been able to magically put in the "perfect" bid) and still won the job, and had a lot more money after paying the planters. This begs the question:

1. Did they take this because they are just going to pay planters a lot less and maintain their own percentage? or;
2. Did they think they "need" this contract and are willing to sacrifice their own margins to pay the planters well?

Did they take this because they thought their competitors would be bidding a lot less, and just screw up?

There are supposed to be forty million extra trees on the market this year. Knowing that, any sane contractor should know that they can bid higher. A bid at 20 cents a tree is pure insanity. The ONLY reasons this could make sense (in my opinion), are that either Summit wants this contract for a very specific reason (ie. to fill a gap in their schedule), or because they want to take the Walmart approach and try to plant as many trees as possible, and reap efficiencies on economies of scale. The problem with economies of scale is that they usually don't work. Planting contractors who expand rapidly have consistently underperformed, historically speaking, and often go out of business within a couple years. I look at examples like PRT and SilvaRam.

A 20 cent bid is ridiculous.

The bids in the 25-28 cent range are regrettable.

There is NO reason that bids for unprepped ground should be under 30 cents this year. In 2009, everyone knew that the industry was in for a few years of pain. We hoped that by around 2012 or 2013, prices would rebound. It is time for that rebound.

There are a lot of bids being submitted between now and the last week of October. Smart contractors will be watching public results very carefully. Why bid insanely low right now? Some contractors (ie. ALL the smart ones) will start winning contracts over the next week or two, and will realize that they are getting near capacity. At that point, they'll start backing off on their bids, or stop bidding entirely. Therefore, the bids near the end of the month will be less competitive, unless there are contractors who think they didn't get enough trees and are desperate.

I am going to be posting a summary of all public bids on the front page of Replant at the end of the bidding season. Potential planters (both rookies and vets) can examine this information before they decide whether or not to plant in 2012.

If the bid prices remain as stupid as this first one, I'm going to put a huge recommendation on the front page of Replant that NOBODY should consider starting a career as a tree planter in 2012. Thousands of potential rookies look at the site every spring. Companies that rely on a large number of first-year planters need to step back and realize that ultimately, low bids are hurting themselves more than the planters. Planters can vote with their feet and work for other companies, or in other industries. Contractors have much more at risk, because they can't walk away without losing their company.

[shakattack]

Here here!!!! (Applause) That's how it is.

[Scooter]

Oh, and you know another major problem this causes? This is public information. A lot of the so-called "Direct Award" contracts that contractors claim to have are not always 100% "direct award." Sometimes they are preferred bids, and sometimes they are "you give us a price and we'll decide whether or not it is acceptable."

So let's think about a scenario. Let's assume that a contractor has a licensee that they plant a lot of trees for, and last year, did the work at 25 cents a tree. This year, knowing that there are a lot more trees on the market, they think, "Hm, we should be able to get that back up to at least 28 or 29 cents this year, which is almost what we got from these guys four years ago." So the contractor comes up with a nice little letter full of reasons why they are regrettably going to have to charge a few more cents per tree next summer: rising fuel costs, rising vehicle costs, rising safety compliance costs, rising food costs for the camps, etc. Things are looking good, as the contractor goes to meet with the licensee in person.

The licensee listens to the presentation and says, "Well, that's regrettable that your costs are rising, but we noticed that Summit is planting trees in central BC for only 20.1 cents apiece. As much as we'd like to be able to give you more money, we actually have to insist that you cut your prices by 5% this year or else we won't be able to directly offer you any trees this year, and we'll have to put them out on the open market for bid instead. You know how it goes - it's out of our control because our corporate accountants are breathing down our necks. Sorry."

RIDICULOUS.

Never mind the fact that unless Summit is paying 8 cents for raw ground, they are probably losing money on that contract. The licensees can still use it as pressure on all contractors. And I can guarantee that some of the people who award planting contracts DO pay attention to the public BCTS bid prices, because I have seen charts with my own eyes that tendering officials have put together, which provide exact details about what the province is paying contractors (broken down into per-tree pricing).

[kingcone]

Good luck to the SUMMIT PLANTERS if the take it.....

[Coaster]

I think you can Summit up by saying these guys have missed the boat. Have they had their heads buried in the sand? This early in the bidding game they aren't just trying to fill in a hole in their schedule because this is one of the first bids to open. They've misjudged the market and will be regretting this foolish low bid. Perhaps they think they can just hire a bunch of dumb rookies who won't know that they can do better.

I don't want to make this bid sound any better than it is but I think it's more likely that they'd be paying closer to 50% of the bid price unless there are considerable access issues. That still leaves 35% to cover fuel, trucks, payroll costs, supervision and camp expenses. The remaining 15% is a meager amount to cover overhead and profit. Any company in their right mind should be pushing that percenatge up to make up for the last few years and get ready for the next downturn - which inevitably will come in this cyclical industry.

Company foresters will inevitably use these kinds of low bids for leverage when negotiating with their preferred or direct contractors however any contractor worth their salt will argue that they have to have better prices to attract a quality workforce and to refurbish their ailing companies. If they bow to pressure from their clients and accept low prices they too will be guilty of misjudging the market. Sure go ahead and bid out the work, chances are it will go for more than a reasonable negotiated price and who knows what shabby outfit they'll get.

The fundamental fact remains that there aren't enough good contractors and planters left to get all of the trees in properly and in a timely manner. I'm hoping that planters will corroborate my theory that the contractors who were pateient this fall did the best. It could be an object lesson for any contractors who pay attention to what's being said on this site. I have a feeling that Replant is becoming something any smart contractor should be paying attention to.

[Scooter]

I'm very tempted to open this part of the forums to public viewing (or to move this specific thread to the Q&A forum, which is open), so contractors who don't already have accounts can read this particular thread without signing up. I know that about 20% of BC/AB contractors already have accounts here, and possibly more that I don't know about. But that still leaves a large knowledge gap, and unfortunately, I think that some of the biggest companies are the ones that do not pay as much attention as they might.

I'm also tempted, after doing the above, to send an email link to every contractor email address that I can find, just so they can't plead ignorance about the grass-roots discussions in this thread. And reading things here is the easy part - there's also a lot of information being shared much more privately on Facebook that contractors will never be able to tap into effectively.

I consider myself to be fortunate to talk to a lot of planters, because of this website and other direct contacts. In fact, I probably talk to more planters from other companies than from the main company that I work for. And I have never heard as much unrest from mainland planters in the past as I have heard in the past six or seven weeks, since the Interior planting season ended. A wave of vets leaving the industry for city jobs could change the landscape pretty quickly, and I think there is some serious potential for that to happen unless we see better prices (at some companies) in 2012. The trends are obvious: there are a number of companies where planters are quite content with their prices, relatively speaking, and a much bigger number where the planters know that the grass appears to be greener elsewhere.

[Mike]

I'm very tempted to open this part of the forums to public viewing (or to move this specific thread to the Q&A forum, which is open), so contractors who don't already have accounts can read this particular thread without signing up. I know that about 20% of BC/AB contractors already have accounts here, and possibly more that I don't know about. But that still leaves a large knowledge gap, and unfortunately, I think that some of the biggest companies are the ones that do not pay as much attention as they might.

I'm also tempted, after doing the above, to send an email link to every contractor email address that I can find, just so they can't plead ignorance about the grass-roots discussions in this thread. And reading things here is the easy part - there's also a lot of information being shared much more privately on Facebook that contractors will never be able to tap into effectively.

Please do. And given the number of public e-mail addresses that I've dug for companies, any individual could do this in hopes of driving bids up, even if you didn't. I actually might have an already-formatted e-mail list for mass e-mail of companies that I could post here...

Edit: Could not find preformatted mass e-mail list on laptop. Looking elsewhere.

[Tnalp]

Hey! What gives?

I've noticed much "diplomacy" in past posts in regards to lower bids etc... why so much excitement over one early BCTS bid this time around.

Are you ready to quit planting Scooter? Has Folklore been up there with the best of the best, price wise etc..?

Anyway, regardless of the reason for Summit accepting the job if they complete it successfully and their workers are mostly "satisfied" so be it. The Folklore price of 28? Cent could be construed as a very low bid in different circumstances.. (Relativity and sliding scales, kinda thing)

I think that most employers and many "managers" (not to mention planters!!) are in positions were they need a serious uptick in inflationary adjusted remuneration; Understandably so. That does not negate the fact that regardless of where you and your company is positioned on the planter wage scale ( "from 150 average to 450 plus average" ) there will always be someone who will be able to outbid you and possibly create uneasily quantifiable market repercussions.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about fairness, especially in regards to workers wages, but the phenomenon of downward wage pressure is not just because of a 20 cent Summit bid! Last year most of the people on my crew where beginning to be content with their daily wage once they hit 300 to 350, quite a few were expecting close to 375 to 400 a day and, for the most part they attained that! The average number of years of experience was well over 12!

My point is that all the companies that have a workforce with an average expectation of way less, due to numerous factors including the conscious planter recognition of the rookie/learning curve reality DO create market pressures. Where does experience and inexperience meet and when does this job become a career as opposed to summer money etc?

My opinion is that most vets who have traditional expenses I.E. Mortgages, family, kids, are accurate benchmarks of where wages ought to be to be able to consider this a "seasonal" career. In my experience the threshold has to be at least 300 a day!!

All owner's and supervisor should be forthcoming with their worker's by explaining to them that making an average of 225 $ a day works out to maybe 15 to 18 $ an hour!! taking into account overtime etc..

I support you wholeheartedly in your bid to help the "masses" by telling it like it is! Are we ready to walk away from the industry to prove a point and set the example based on our recommendation that 2012 is not the year to start planting!! Time will tell!

Keep up the good work!

[Scooter]

why so much excitement over one early BCTS bid this time around.

This could set the tone for the season. Hopefully it is an anamoly!

Are you ready to quit planting Scooter?

Do I want to? No.
Have I considered other career options recently? Yes.
Would I continue to plant instead of taking higher-paying jobs elsewhere? In some circumstances, yes. The planting culture appeals to me.
Could I walk away if I wanted to? Absolutely.

Has Folklore been up there with the best of the best, price wise etc..?

No. We've had contracts in the past few years that I was delighted with, contracts that I was content with, and contracts that I've been unhappy with. I have learned one thing from planting at eight or nine companies though: Folklore isn't at the bottom of the ladder either. Sort of in the middle, most of the time.

Are we ready to walk away from the industry to prove a point and set the example based on our recommendation that 2012 is not the year to start planting!!

That would probably be an extreme over-reaction for vets. At the moment, I don't think vets are (in general) better off looking for work elsewhere, AS LONG AS there is no further erosion of earnings. But I do fear that lower prices are going to significantly increase barriers of RE-entry to rookies (ie. future retention). If their wages are down 10% next year from 2011, and inflation has increased costs by a few percentage points, then a smaller percentage of first-year planters (industry-wide) are going to complete their seasons and/or return in 2013 than "succeeded" in the 2011 cohort. That concerns me, since we need a constant influx of new employees (industry-wide) to compensate for the high attrition in reforestation.

But then again, maybe that's for the better, at least for the vets.

The problem is that low prices hurt everyone - companies owners AND employees. But a labour shortage caused by low prices has a different effect: it hurts company owners, yet ultimately benefits experienced employees in future years (by making them more valuable).

It's an interesting dilemma ...



Please note that I don't have a particular dislike for Summit - I'd be equally vocal if it was any other company. And I don't criticize them solely for putting in such a low bid in comparison to the rest of the pack. I criticize them for accepting it.

In their shoes, I would have looked at that list and passed the bid on to the second place bidder. That company would have probably done the job and managed to come out better in a financial sense, AND I could have saved my labour force for potential higher-paying bids down the road. If Summit needs to expand because they've won a lot of bids, and the prices are 20 cents, they're not going to benefit from the expansion in volume. However, if they wait until later in the bidding season and take a different contract at a higher price, everybody benefits. And worst case, if it's near the end of the bidding season and they don't have enough work for their existing camps, THEN they can place the 20 cent bid.

But what do I know? I'm not a planting company owner, and intend never to become one.

Apologies if I seem a bit cranky about this particular bid. I just know from twenty years of experience in running other businesses that sometimes something happens that is the "straw that broke the camel's back." And I just have a nasty gut feeling that a 20-cent bid could be exactly that. Besides, people should be talking about this issue publicly, since it affects all of us in the industry. Of course, the contractors can't get together and specifically plan how to submit their bids, because that would be price fixing, which is illegal. But planters and lower-level management can certainly comment on the desire to have better earnings.

[Tnalp]

You seem true to form in that you are open to discussion and bring forth many interesting ideas! Hats off.

I hope you follow thru with your idea off posting bids on the front page; i know I will be following the posts.

Thanks. Oh yeah, by the way, you mentioned that you were on the island planting how did that go? Also I may have winter work for chainsaw operators and other various positions send me a private message if you may be interested!.

Cheers!

[shawniganlaker]

Timmy does it again, brilliant strategy ! Why not subsidize BCTS

[Scooter]

Tnalp, the Island planting was refreshing. I thoroughly enjoyed the bit of work that I had last week, and met some good people that I had only met through Replant PM's in the past.

Not sure about my plans for the winter, so I probably won't be looking for work until next spring. But if I do end up looking for anything, I'll definitely PM you. I'm pretty comfortable running a saw. Chain saws, that is - I've never gotten very efficient with a brush saw.

[whitepickup]

Very ironic considering the owner of the company was extremely vocal about urging all of his fellow contractors to raise the prices at this summer's WSCA convention in Kamloops:)

[dreamofcream]

I could'ynt find results as to who else bid on the job, but Leader was just awarded a contract around Chilliwack/Squamish for the planting of 15746 trees and Plantskyyd (pigs blood, awesome) re-application for an additional 80 hectares for 23349$. Sounds both profitable and disgusting

[Mike]

Trivial number of trees, unfortunately. That's 1 day for a 6 pack at 2600 trees...

[mcD]

good luck getting in 2600 around squamish! but your right still not a lot of work

[Scooter]

BCTS Burns Lake Results:

$ 645,557 Windfirm
$ 731,978 Summit
$ 808,171 Folklore
$ 876,180 Dynamic
$ 879,307 Blue Collar
$ 905,824 Coast Range
$ 967,384 Apex
$1,175,213 Celtic
$1,188,641 Seneca

I can't find the original contract package on BC Bid right now, so I'll have to dig around and try to figure out the number of trees, so I can calculate per-tree prices. With numbers of this size, it must have been a pretty big contract, like probably around 3 million trees.

[Mike]

86400$ left on the table. Whoops?

Bid could be an entire 14% higher. Though Windfirm is pretty small, so they probably are able to give a larger percentage to planters (edit: than SUMMIT)

[Coaster]

BCTS Burns Lake Results:

You can search for old tender packages using the Advanced Search option on BC Bid's 'Browse Opportunities' page.

Approximately 2.6 million trees

24.8 cents $ 645,557 Windfirm
28.1 - $ 731,978 Summit
31.1 - $ 808,171 Folklore
33.7 - $ 876,180 Dynamic
33.8 - $ 879,307 Blue Collar
34.8 - $ 905,824 Coast Range
37.2 - $ 967,384 Apex
45.2 - $1,175,213 Celtic
45.7 - $1,188,641 Seneca

I don't care how small Windfirm is, it's another dumb miscalculated bid. Leaving that kind of percentage (13%) and that kind of money on the table ($86,421) is just plain stupid. They should drop it for the betterment of all.

[Scooter]

Good find and good comments, although I think the number might still be low. I've been trying to do some digging and I think the tree number on the contract is definitely higher, although I still don't have the info down to the exact tree. Give me another 24 hours.

But if Windfirm decides to pass on this, the trees go to Summit. Is that good? Summit could end up with a lot of trees soon. I wonder what their total company volume was last year, and what they think their capacity could be for 2012. Mind you, this bid is MUCH more reasonable than their first bid of the season. Thank you Tim T. Still a bit lower than I'd like to see (speaking as a planter), but getting a lot better.

To me, it looks like Dynamic, Celtic, and Windfirm were the smart ones here, interested in the job but not interested in whoring themselves out. The higher bids looked like companies who are sitting back and watching to see how the first several openings go, in order to plan an effective strategy for the later bids.

[Coaster]

BCTS - Vernon - Columbia Zone - 451,621 trees

These trees are up the Mica reservoir and in the Beaverfoot east of Golden - widely separated areas.

$180648 - 40.0 - Next Generation
$187481 - 41.5 - Wagner
$210085 - 46.5 - Columbia Extreme
$211150 - 46.7 - Zanzibar
$216341 - 47.9 - Coast Range
$226742 - 50.2 - Seneca
$258846 - 57.3 - Raven

Columbia Extreme & Zanzibar work the Columbia Valley regularly and their bids should be regarded as the most informed. Next Gen is too low and Wagner is continuing their coastal low bidding philosophy, now trying to get interior work. Columbia Extreme are based out of Golden.

[jdtesluk]

I've planted a lot in the Beaverfoot, and it can be remarkably fast ground for being that close to the Rockies. However, there is hardly any easy land near the Mica reservoir- it's almost all in the black diamond range.

[Scooter]

From the numbers that I got today, the contract was actually 3,151,480 trees, not half a million less.
If that info is actually correct, then the correct per-tree bid prices are:

20.5 - $ 645,557 Windfirm
23.2 - $ 731,978 Summit
25.6 - $ 808,171 Folklore
27.8 - $ 876,180 Dynamic
27.9 - $ 879,307 Blue Collar
28.7 - $ 905,824 Coast Range
30.7 - $ 967,384 Apex
37.3 - $1,175,213 Celtic
37.7 - $1,188,641 Seneca

These numbers make more sense when you consider the ground and recent trends. However, the number doesn't make sense for Windfirm. Maybe they mistakenly thought that there were only 2.5 million trees there? I would assume that the contract bid paperwork would have some sort of equivalent of the "schedule B" which gives a grand total for the contract? It would really suck if someone bid on a per-tree basis, thinking that the contract was only 2.5 million trees, and find out later that they have to plant and pay the planters for 3.1 million.

[Mike]

I think I've seen Zap or Rick Ness on this forum before; I'm going to try to make sure they're aware of this development. Windfirm is legitimately good people that try, at least from my experience with them, which seems to show something going weird here. It could be a loss-leader/filler for the Canfor/Cheslatta/PRT portions of their season...but maybe they really didn't know it was 3.1 million.

[Scooter]

Yeah, I've talked to Zap frequently, he's a great guy. I can't see them making a mistake in the numbers though, but I'm not sure where Coaster got his numbers. Mind you, maybe mine are wrong! I'm going to dig into this a bit more.

[Coaster]

I got my numbers for the Burns Lake contract PL13TAB001 directly from the BCBid advertisement. Here's the quote -

"Overview of the Work/Service Required:
Sealed tenders for the planting of approximately 2.6 million trees in the
vicinity of the North and South areas of Francois Lake, BC, will be received by the Burns
Lake BC Timber Sales Office, Timber Sales Manager, Babine Business Area, 185 Yellowhead
Highway, Box 999, Burns Lake, BC, V0J 1E0, no later than 2:00 PM local time, October 5th,
2011, at which time all tenders will be opened in private."

It says approximately so perhaps the tender actually had 3.1 mill. The tender documents are not available on line as there was a mandatory office viewing where the tenders were handed out.
If you use the Advanced Search option on BCBid you can type in the contract number, tick off the 'Closed' box and then click search. The original advertisment will show at the bottom of the page and you can click on it to see how it was written up. Usually at the top of the add are links to folders containing all of the documents giving you the details of the job - the tender, contract schedules, conditions, maps etc.

[Scooter]

Yeah, I had to beg for this info from someone who was at the meeting.
And my source could be wrong.

[Scooter]

You'll probably all notice that I started another [related] thread called "A Sample Public BCTS Contract"

I've put all of the documents from the BCTS website in the first post in that thread, so people can understand the process more easily. After all, if you're a resident of BC, it is your tax dollars which fund this whole process.

Here's the link: http://www.replant.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65348

My goal (which no doubt will be derailed) would be to keep 2012-specific info mostly in this thread, and general Q&A about the contract tendering process in that thread.

[Evergreen]

BCTS - Vernon - Spring 2012

North
Trees: 836,140
PL12TKJ042
$$$ Cents

1 Rhino 300300 $0.359
2 Timberline 300606 $0.360
3 Seneca 304197 $0.364
4 Coast Range 304654 $0.364
5 Zanzibar 332619 $0.398
6 Evergreen 332763 $0.398
7 Folklore 357107 $0.427
8 Next Gen 384624 $0.460


South
Trees: 733,215
PL13TKN001
$$$ Cents

1 Seneca 250083 $0.341
2 Rhino 256482 $0.350
3 A.K.D 266175 $0.363
4 Coast Range 280675 $0.383
5 Evergreen 298307 $0.407
6 Zanzibar 303716 $0.414
7 Raven 333408 $0.455

[shawniganlaker]

Bid results for FFT Tyaughton Fire. Bidder responsible for DTA etc. Full Spring contract should drag out till the end of June

North
Trees: 1,149,600
PL13DCS101
$$$ Cents

1 A&G $446,302 $0.388
2 Canyon $489,497 $0.426
3 Evergreen $544,762 $0.474
4 Zanzibar $570,676 $0.496
5 Leader $730,988 $0.636
6 Seneca $823,904 $0.717

[shawniganlaker]

Canyon is the local guy here

[Coaster]

BCTS Wiiliams Lake

East - 1.18 million

Fieldstone $441,139 - 37.4 cents
AKD $441,469 - 37.4
Dynamic $445,632 - 37.8
Seneca $472,434 - 40.0
Folklore $492,180 - 41.7
Zanzibar $526,405 - 44.6
Celtic $531,827 - 45.1

West - 1.5 million

Next Generation $465,257 - 31.0 cents
Dynamic $532,072 - 35.5
Folklore $565,302 - 37.7
Seneca $565,587 - 37.7
Celtic $618,430 - 41.2
AKD $637,465 - 42.5

[jamisnewsham]

now thats a good bid!
finally some real bidding...

[Coaster]

Re: Williams Lake - Jamis you're 1/2 right. Fieldstones bid on the East job looks well done. Next Gen's boner on the West job leaves 14% and $65,000 on the table

[Coaster]

BCTS - Prince George
PL13TGC002

2,385,435 Trees

Folklore $668,034 - 28.0 cents
E.L.F. $773,137 - 32.4
Seneca $797,986 - 33.5
Celtic $817,332 - 34.3
Apex $1,114,513 - 46.7

[Mike]

Oh Folklore; 105000$ or 15.5% on the table. Contractors seem to have a decent understanding that prices are supposed to go up; but up to what, hard to say...actually, wasn't 28 cents Folklore's bit on BCTS Prince George last year, as well?

[b-dawg]

just a cool six-figures left on the table there in that latest one. fuck, there should be a threshold point (unspoken edicate?) where if the % of cash left on the table is passed, the job is automatically dropped on to the next bid.

call another Contractor's Summit..... not everybody got the Memo.....


a year where there's finally more volume of trees to be planted than in the previous two, yet everybody STILL wants to play 'Who Can Be the Biggest Lowballer and by How Big a Margin'....... WTF?

[Scooter]

Yeah, I don't understand this one. I'll try to find out more. The 28 cent bid doesn't seem that odd standing by itself, since the contract is in PG and is usually a pretty easy job, close to home. That kind of bid price wouldn't have put Folklore anywhere close to winning a bid anywhere else with similar ground, based on all the 24 and 25 cent bids that are winning contracts in the region. I thought I heard that some of this contract is actually prepped ground, but I may be wrong. I don't really question the price so much as I question why so few contractors put bids in here - a 28 cent bid shouldn't have had any realistic chance of winning this. Are contractors reaching capacity already?

[Scooter]

And why aren't there another half dozen bidders? Where are Summit, Blue Collar, Rhino, and Dynamic? Maybe Rhino is full after getting that higher-priced job in Vernon. I thought that the PG jobs were some of the most competitive ones out there usually.

[b-dawg]

.....and the Labour sits by and watches the Total Dollar Figure of Wage-Money left on the table rise to embarrassingly conspicuous levels.

With bid numbers this erratic in a year where volume and conditions are more favorable than in recent seasons, pretty hard for the Boys at the Bidding-Table to pass the buck and point fingers as to why Wages are continually/annually slashed......

[b-dawg]

geeeeez, the low-ball bids REALLY stick-out when you can't depend on Summit, Blue-Collar, Rhino, and Dynamic to show-up.

[Coaster]

It's the system of government taking the lowest bid that sets the stage for nervous contractors to make these mistakes with panic bids. Prior to the Prince George opening, Foklore had been striking out, placing just out of the running. I think they freaked out a bit, lost their nerve and threw in a gotta get something bid. Even though the contractors are faced with the reality that there are 20% more trees than last year, it's hard to keep your nerve when opportunities appear to be going by.

A lot of the interior work has been awarded already, so yes contractors are starting to fill up. Hence the conspicuous lack of bidders where normally you'd see twice as many. Brinkman is rarely seen at any public tenders as they must be filled up with private work. There are millions of trees in contracts opening this week and the trend of less bidders will continue. Watch for contractors who scoop up the later opening contracts to know where to send resumes.

[Screefhead]

Despite all the griping about Summit, consistently the worst low ball offenders seem to be NGR and Windfirm.
I too agreed that the there should be some rule where the lowest bid is eliminated if it isn't within a certain percentage range of the average bid or next lowest bid. That more than anything would get contractors to bid more sensibly.

I think a lot of contractors have given up on the PG area because of all the bidding stupidity in past years. Partially explaining why there were so few bids on the contract Folklore won. Also, the size (2.38 million trees) probably scared away a few companies.

[Coaster]

McKenzie - Spring & Summer 2012 Planting Bids
PL13TGE001

2,057,760 trees

Dynamic $593,586 - 28.8 cents
Spectrum $698,650 - 34.0
Apex $723,914 - 35.2
Celtic $729,583 - 35.5
Folklore $801,277 - 38.9

Once again only 5 bidders.

Another $105,000 left on the table! That seems to be a popular number. I've never seen contractors leave so much money to the 2nd bidder. It's like some didn't get the memo. Hello!! There are more trees than there are planters and contractors to do them. Hello!!

[Scooter]

I just saw this online, was just about to post it myself.

Really confusing. I doubt that Dynamic expected that they were being overly aggressive either. They probably weren't confident about placing near the winning bid at 28.0 cents, and almost certainly didn't expect to be almost five cents per tree under the next bidder. Very similar to the MOF PG bid that Folklore got caught with on Friday.

Mind you, at 28 cents, they'll probably be able to do the job with no problem. Mackenzie is usually some pretty fast, sandy ground.

[Coaster]

Really confusing. I doubt that Dynamic expected that they were being overly aggressive either. They probably weren't confident about placing near the winning bid at 28.0 cents, and almost certainly didn't expect to be almost five cents per tree under the next bidder. Very similar to the MOF PG bid that Folklore got caught with on Friday.

Mind you, at 28 cents, they'll probably be able to do the job with no problem. Mackenzie is usually some pretty fast, sandy ground.

Scooter you seem to be apologizing and rationalizing for this grosse underbid. That wouldn't have anything to do with your ties to Folklore who also just blew it big time also leaving over $100 large on the table - would it? There's really no excuse for this. Sure at past deflated prices the contractor can make these jobs work but look at the reality - based on planters getting 50% of the bid, these Einsteins have just removed over $50,000 from wages on each of these jobs, which the 2nd place contractor would have paid their planters. If there was honor amongst the robber barons, they'd drop jobs where so much money is being taken from the planters.

I love the idea that government would reject bids lower than 10% below the 2nd place bidder - but it ain't never gonna happen.

[Coaster]

BCTS is doing everything they can to ensure that low bid contractors have a more difficult time dropping jobs where they have obvious low bids. In most tenders now there are bid deposits of $5,000-$10,000 or more. This is a serious disincentive to contractors dropping low bid jobs. If the contractor drops the job, they forfeit their deposit and also run the risk of being disqualified from bidding in the future. This is a relatively new development. Up until last year bid deposits were very rarely required.

[MiddleAgeMayhem]

This thread is an education in itself. Interesting times...

[Scooter]

Trying to rationalize, yes. Apologizing, no. I'm not the one who put the bid in.

I think that if I was in the shoes of the owner of any of the four companies that have gotten caught so far with extremely low bids compared to the rest of the pack, I would want to drop them. But as pointed out, it would be a kick in the nuts if that made a company ineligible to bid on BCTS jobs again in the future.