A&M Reforestation 2012

[thunderbruce]

Hey all,

I just wanted to shoot a message out there for all of the curious, future planters, rookies, seasoned vets, staff, supervisors, owners and reminiscing retirees. I am hoping this forum stays positive and if there are any questions or concerns feel free to shoot them my way, I will do my best to give the right information or find someone that will.

A&M Reforestation is discussed on this website in many ways, sometimes in a negative light and sometimes in a positive light. A few bad experiences, miscommunications, and overall shitty situations can really ruin a company's web profile and rightfully so. I think one of the issues past planters have had with A&M is that the Owner was a bit of an asshole and the company in general wasn't run as well as it should/could have been... I wanted to spread the word that A&M is under new management. One of the Supervisors who has worked with A&M for many years has now taken over the company and is trying to rebuild it's reputation and run the camps the way they should be run. I'll leave that up to you guys to mention his name.

I wanted to start this forum to give some info about the company, for those that don't know already - A&M is over 25 years old and has a main office in Sudbury, Ontario. The season usually begins for everyone in early May with a veteran only plant starting in mid April for a couple of shifts before the main season. A&M usually has 50+ days in the spring and 20+ days in the summer as well as several months of saw work around and inbetween. Most of the work is done while living in bush camps although there are a few community center shows in the summer. The planting schedule has been 6 days on and 1 day off for many years. They work in Ontario (mainly around Sudbury) and usually have two large camps. They are a small company and some might say they are a 'rookie mill' but while many vet planters continue to return to A&M there are always a large number of rookies that are trained well and move on to be great vet planters with A&M or other companies. Planters that learn with A&M end up being very successful as vet planters.

A huge focus for the company this year is to pay fairly and in a timely manner. As you all know there are new laws coming in to play with planting in Ontario when it comes to paying minimum wage and paying for travel/vacation time etc. This is something A&M will be focusing on to ensure that this company stays alive and well in the future. The tree prices for A&M are usually 7.5-9 cents a tree with a few incentive days and camp costs of around $25/day (2012 cost not set yet but always lower for vets that return).
Safety/training is another huge focus that improves every year with this company. The new Manager takes pride in the safety of the camps and avoiding any and all accidents. If you have any questions feel free to ask away - I or someone else may be able to answer.

Thanks everyone for reading and I hope that A&M can become the company we all want it to be - helping to rise the tree prices in Ontario, keeping planters safe while paying them for their hard work, and providing rookie planters with the experience they need to make some serious coin whether it is with A&M or elsewhere.

If you have worked for A&M and had a good experience, speak up! If you have worked for A&M and had a terrible experience, give us some tips for making this year the first of many awesome years with A&M.

A&M will be hiring new rookie planters and vet planters for the upcoming 2012 season and you can apply on the website at http://www.amreforestation.com. A&M Vets that want to come back can click the "vet returning" button on the website as well and fill out the form. If you have specific questions/comments in regards to A&M and its hiring or general info about the season please email amreforestationrecruiting@gmail.com.

Cheers and happy holidays!

[Scooter]

Good post, best of luck this year with the change in management. Is the ownership changed too, or just management? If ownership has changed, have you considered a name change also, to help make it obvious that things will be done differently?

[thunderbruce]

Hey Scooter!
We considered the name change big time but the part owner is still kicking around and it is a family name from way back. For now I'm going to go with honesty is the best policy and go from there, hopefully we can get some feedback and some tips and make the company a better place to work.

[TheDude]

Ive spent the last two summers with A&M, and plan on returning again for 2012. If anyone has questions about working for them feel free to PM me if you want to keep it private.

[Chocolatej]

My two cents about A&M (I worked 3 seasons for them) :

Pros:

-A lot of great people staff their camps and generally contribute to a positive environment on and off the block, as well as working hard for planters.
-The new GM is a great guy, very transparent in his approach to management and in his relationship with planters. He is also very safety orientated and goes out of his way to make sure proper standards are enforced.
-A lengthy bush season is available for those who want to work with a saw as well (last season had about 6 1/2 months of pre-commercial thinning, April-October). Planters can almost always pad their seasons with this on either ends of planting contracts.


Cons:

-Generally low prices, 7.5c and 8c are the standard for prepped and non-prepped land respectively (at least they have been in the past).
-Low food budget, though not necessarily meaning the food will be bad, but some cooks have had a difficult time with it. Others manage to pull it off.
-Due to high turnover, and pre-dominantly university student staffing, foremen are sometimes not as experienced as they should be. Though for the most part their hard-work makes up for this, it can be frustrating at times. Much of the staff only has two seasons of planting under their belt.

Overall, I think the pros outweigh the cons for some people but not necessarily for everyone. A&M can offer you a great rookie experience and can be used as a stepping stone to eventually seek work out west. Many planters even prefer to stay with the company, as earning potentials are decent for vets.

[Nate]

Few Questions:

1. Do they still make planters place a "deposit" to secure their employment pre-hiring?
2. Do they still doll out bare-minimum advances throughout the season and make the planters wait until August to get the bulk of their pay? (This is illegal in the Western provinces.)
3. What type of transportation do they provide to block?
4. What is the approximate food budget per person and what is the cook/planter ratio. 1:40-50 approximately?

[thunderbruce]

Hey Nate,

I am happy to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. Here it goes.

1. We do require applicants to send in a security deposit. It is refunded provided the planter works to the end of his/her obligation (this can depend on when the season is completed or if/when they have to leave for another job, school, family get-together etc. as long as we know their end date in advance). The deposit system allows us to make sure those who are serious get a spot on our employment list due to the high volume of applicants in the spring. The deposit is shown in the final pay stub after the season is completed as a returned deposit of $100.

2. We advance 150 to rookies and 250 to vets weekly, but any planter can request a higher advance at any time if they need it. A few additional notes:
a. Some people request not to have advances at all. Kind of like a savings program paid in a lump sum after the season is complete.
b. A&M has established a quarterly payroll structure (every three months). It is well within the legislation of the Employment Standards division of the Ministry of Labour in ON.
c. The Ministry of Labour Employment Standards division in Ontario advised us not to even pay advances and to only pay once every three months (or any other established payroll schedule), but we decided it was more important to pay people on a weekly basis for their days off etc.
d. Planters are given a biweekly document stating how many trees they planted each day, the tree price, the hours worked, and the camp costs paid. This document is signed by the planter and they keep a copy, crewboss keeps a copy and a copy is sent to the office for payroll.

3. A&M offers school bus or pick-up transportation to and from the worksite. Over half of our staff member have their class C bus licenses and those staff are the drivers for the season. The school buses are inspected annually and biweekly during operations. The buses are also inspected daily with use of a schedule 2 inspection. This daily inspection is audited daily by the camp supervisor. Workers can provide their own transportation to and from the worksite if they wish.

4. The approximate food budget is 11.00/worker/day. The ratio is 1 cook to 30 – 40 planters.

I hope this helps! If you have any other questions feel free to ask away. You can private message me also or for more specific details feel free to call Chris at our office at (705)897-5370.

[thunderbruce]

- Generally low prices, 7.5c and 8c are the standard for prepped and non-prepped land respectively (at least they have been in the past).
-Low food budget, though not necessarily meaning the food will be bad, but some cooks have had a difficult time with it. Others manage to pull it off.
-Due to high turnover, and pre-dominantly university student staffing, foremen are sometimes not as experienced as they should be. Though for the most part their hard-work makes up for this, it can be frustrating at times. Much of the staff only has two seasons of planting under their belt.

Hey chocolatej,

Just a response and few personal comments to your pro/con post: prices are correct. We pay anywhere from 7.5 - 8 cents per tree. We do have incentive days where we have been known to pay anywhere from 8.5 - 10 cents a tree. (this is rare, but happens) but yes, as a company working in Ontario, these prices are pretty normal across the board.
In the last few years we have had crews unload reefers (refridgerated trucks full of trees) for free. This year we are paying an extra .5 cent on that days trees planted for unloading a reefer.

Some cooks are great at what they do and we have had many of them in the history of A&M, some cooks are just alright but they make it happen. We do our best to make sure there is good food and enough of it. I can't predict the year to come but hopefully its as good as the last - i thought the food was pretty good last year.

As far as the crew boss experience goes, it's true some of the crew bosses at A&M plant there for two years and then are asked or apply to crew boss - most planters that plant for over 2 or 3 years usually realize that they may make more money planting at A&M than they will crew bossing so they decide against it... when someone comes to plant and they show great crew boss potential they are usually offered some sort of staffing position after their second year. I'm not saying this works all the time, there have been some brutal crew bosses - some with even more than 2 years planting, but the crew bosses do go through enough training to be a crew boss and are given the opportunity after their first two years of planting for a reason. Some people are better planters than crew bosses, some are better crew bosses than planters... it can go both ways.
A lot of season vets don't want the responsibility and want the eat, plant, sleep lifestyle.
A&M does its best to hire the crew bosses that will keep the operation safe and make the right decisions.

Thanks for your input!

Cheers!

[Scooter]

Regarding the reefer unloadings, I was just doing the math. Let's assume that it takes about one hour to unload a reefer. We can usually do it in about 45 minutes to an hour with a big group (25 people), although I usually stagger unloadings in my camp so only about 12-15 people unload every third reefer, in which case it takes about 1.25 to 1.50 hours. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that "half" of a fifty-person camp, ie. 25 people, do it and it takes an hour.

If you were to pay everyone an hour of minimum wage, that would work out to 25 person-hours. If minimum wage is $10/hr (rounded to make the math simple) then you're looking at $250 per reefer.

Under your system of half a cent per tree, let's assume that you still had 25 people unloading, and it still took them an hour. The unloading info is actually irrelevant, because you're paying commission rather than a time-based compensation. But let's also assume that they each plant 2000 trees that day after unloading the reefer. If anything, I'm assuming this might be a tiny bit conservative based on Ontario speeds, but with rookies factored in, maybe that's a mistaken assumption.

If those planters each get paid half a cent on 2000 trees, that's $10 per person. The same as paying them an hour at minimum wage.

Would it not make more sense to pay people just a straight hour at minimum wage, instead of the incentive-based half cent? The bonus of going the half-cent route is exactly that - it's an incentive for people to plant harder for the rest of the day. But realistically, a half-cent is not a huge motivator.

The disadvantage of the half-cent is that for the people who do NOT plant 2000 trees per day, thereby making an extra $10, they have the ability to go talk to the labour board and say that they didn't earn at least minimum wage for the work that they did in unloading a reefer. So to eliminate the labour board risk, you'd actually have to look at each person's earnings individually that day and for those who didn't plant enough trees, you'd have to do a bigger top-up to meet minimum wage guidelines. Your accountants definitely don't want to deal with that hassle.

Also, there's an even bigger risk. Technically speaking, by paying half a cent per tree higher, you're not actually paying for unloading the reefer. You're paying a better rate on the planting. So there is the risk that the labour board could turn around and say "you have to pay at least minimum wage ON TOP OF a better incentive rate on the planting."

I would think that it would be less risky for the company to just say "here is an hour of minimum wage on your cheque" for unloading. When it's there in black and white, with no room for interpretation, you would completely eliminate the risk of the labour board saying that you're not paying properly. And based on the numbers above, it shouldn't cost the company any more money.

But the trick of course is to utilize the "right" number of people for each unloading. Smaller groups that don't get in each others' way (15-20 people) often seem to be the most efficient overall. And if a smaller group of 15 takes 1.5 hours, and you pay them that 1.5 hours each, you're still coming out ahead - 22.5 hours instead of the 25.0 hours if it was 25 people taking an hour.

Just a suggestion, but I think it looks like A&M is trying to reform and be prepared to meet current and future labour board obligations, and this might be worth considering.

[thunderbruce]

Hey Scooter!

Thanks a lot for your input! Management has decided to go with the approach that will benefit all planters equally. The unloading of delivered trees will be paid hourly at minimum wage.

[landhammerer]

This will be my 5th season planting starting in the spring and I cannot wait. The last 2 seasons past the land has been some of the creamiest scarified sand I have seen. This year is no exception with the quality land. New management to clean the place up makes me smile as well.

[grouse grind]

This will be my 4th year working for A&M, and I can't wait for the season to get started. Excited for the new management, and I'm especially excited to work with a great group of individuals yet again!!

cheers to a great season!

[PlantGypsy]

I am hoping this forum stays positive and if there are any questions or concerns feel free to shoot them my way, I will do my best to give the right information or find someone that will.

...Safety/training is another huge focus that improves every year with this company. The new Manager takes pride in the safety of the camps and avoiding any and all accidents. If you have any questions feel free to ask away - I or someone else may be able to answer.

Hey thunderbruce, I'm hoping you can shed light on the following that wasn't yet discussed. A&M has had a consistently bad reputation among experienced tree planters from it and other companies in the past, and I understand that new management is really trying to fix things and make A&M the best it possibly could be. What are the companies responses and further actions on the following:

One common complaint is that the company traditionally gives the best land to vets to get done sooner and the worst to rookies. Another is that unsafe old busses have been used that break down often, causing less time on the block. Is this true and will it honestly change this year?

What is the companies response now for Aju Iroaga, who went missing in 2006? For those who dont know, he was arguing with his supervisor on the second morning of his second season and quit. He demanded to be taken back to camp but was told he had to wait till the end of the day, but then went missing from his block at about 4:15pm. Police surveyed the site but did not block it off and failed to interview the staff. He was lost, presumed dead and his body was never found. It was his choice to leave the block if he did (nobody knows), but was it the companies responsibility to ensure that he didn`t by accomodating his mental state, beyond what might be considered reasonable (assuming that it was apparent that he was in an irrational state of mind)? Is it even acceptable for a supervisor to be arguing with an employee? What are the companies responses and further actions?

[PlantinTaders]

What is the companies response now for Aju Iroaga, who went missing in 2006?

I heard about this guy. From what I heard the police concluded he likely tried to hitchhike and was murdered or he unwittingly wandered deep into the bush, starved, and was never found. Although if I remember correctly I he was an African immigrant, I'm not sure about his status as a permanent resident or not but maybe he had reason to just disappear.

[Chocolatej]

Can there not be an A&M thread without this incident being brought up?

PlantGypsy, if you really want to discuss it, this is not the place. You can call A&M's office if you want.

[grouse grind]

what's up plantgypsy?

I'm fairly certain we talked about this in person, but I will answer your questions to the best of my ability for further clarificiation.

as far as busses go: the company takes every precaution to make sure planters have a safe and secure mode of transportation to and from the work site. All bus driver's in camp are fully licensed and perform daily inspections of the busses as per schedule 2, the busses have weekly trips to the mechanic for up-keep, and are inspected annually as is required by legislation and regulation. All that being said, we are driving these bad boys on some of the roughest logging roads. It's not uncommon to see logging trucks, pick up trucks, and all sorts of vehicles break down on these roads. An over heating bus, and busted leaf springs are bound to happen.

as far as vets getting good land preference: I must admit, as a crew boss I have a tendency to get my vets off the bus first. Not because they deserve more time in land, but because I am confident in their ability to manage land effectively, and plant good quality trees in any type of land. I am confident I can show them where they are on a map, leave them with trees, and not have to worry about them for the next couple of hours. On the other hand, rookies (especially at the beginning of the season) need more of my time and attention, and I need to monitor their progress more closely. Truth be told, I think vets usually get the shittier land because I know it won't affect their morale.
Everyone gets the same opportunity, and if you feel your crew boss is favouring the vets, then bring it up with them. So just to recap: it's not that vets get better land, they just get thrown in first. If your enthusiasm and willingness to get in land is at a high level, then your crew boss will notice that and put you in land accordingly.

as far as Aju: the only person who was an A&M Reforestation employee at that time is our general manager, who at the time was a supervisor in a camp where Aju was not working. So basically, what you know about the case, is just as much as anyone else who is currently employed. I don't know what asking this question has to do with getting prepared for your rookie season, but the other 2 were legit.

if you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

[thunderbruce]

PlantGypsy,

I fully agree with what grouse grind has said - It wouldn't make too much sense to throw rookies in all of the shitty land and keep our vets in the fast land - this would result in good land being eaten up very quickly and rookies stuck in terrible pieces for an entire shift. Crew bosses do their best to make sure everyone gets their opportunities in any really good land but it really depends on the area and what needs to happen to get it done properly. This also depends on the planter and how they are motivated and how keen they are to make money. There are always weird back pockets, unobvious boundaries, walk ins, or weird shaped spots where a seasoned vet would be able to fill quickly and properly without a ton of supervision. In those situations, no matter what the land is like, vet's are the ideal planter to finish a job. I think that most rookies do not realize what is good vs. bad land in the first couple of weeks of a season and are trying to learn a tough skill with vet's around them planting thousands of trees - they often say that the vet's are given the best land, when realistically this isn't the case. They are just experienced and have the ability to plant a lot of trees in all types of land and their crew bosses use them accordingly to finish blocks in the right timeline. Often vets have their fair share of ass because their crew boss needs it to be done quickly, and like grouse grind says, their morale won't be intensely effected and they won't dwell on the bad piece for long.

The busses, grouse grind got to the jist of it. Every year we have fewer and fewer bus break downs. The roads are rough but the busses are kept in good condition and monitored very closely. Safety in our driving is a huge priority, no one leaves for work until all busses have been inspected and we drive in convoy in most situations. Bus break downs are annoying because sometimes they mean a shorter planting day if you need to wait for assistance - although I would prefer a bus over heating to any unsafe driving any day. We plan to have a break down free season but you can't control over heating or a worn out tire/leaf spring - these things happen on bush logging roads and how we deal with the situation is the important part.

As far as the Aju situation goes - This is an unfortunate incident that occured and is not a reflection of any practise or policy of A&M in the past or present. The issue was dealth with by authorities at the time and A&M was not found at fault in any way. Staff members were interviewed several times over the past few years, and as you can imagine,
everyone involved did everything in their power to avoid this from happening. I can not explain the situation in detail and would not think it is appropriate to do so on this blog at this time. Any specific questions can be directed to our head office. Like I said, this is a very unfortunate situation and I am sure Aju and his family would prefer these discussions be put to rest. We do training with all of our new employees on the dangers of the planting/logging areas and how important is it to know your location and how to get help if you need it. We inform our employees of where they are working and how to find maps/emergency numbers and our satelite cell phone. This situation has only made us even more aware of how important safety training and policies are and we will continue to implement these policies with force and diligence.

[PlantinTaders]

as far as Aju: the only person who was an A&M Reforestation employee at that time is our general manager, who at the time was a supervisor in a camp where Aju was not working.

<6 years, retention of only a single individual, that person being the general manager. I think that alone says a great deal about this company.

[Chocolatej]

as far as Aju: the only person who was an A&M Reforestation employee at that time is our general manager, who at the time was a supervisor in a camp where Aju was not working.

<6 years, retention of only a single individual, that person being the general manager. I think that alone says a great deal about this company.

Well that's not accurate. There are still a handful of 6+ year vets with A&M, some of them still planters but most in staff positions.

[PlantinTaders]

Ahh my mistake then, I thought it was a little strange to not have anyone still hanging around.

[Scooter]

The issue of Aju is obviously a troubling one, as his unresolved disappearance doesn't give anyone any closure. But as pointed out, none of the personnel who were in charge at the time are even with A&M anymore. While I don't want to downplay the significance of this incident, I'm not sure that re-framing the questions would be of any advantage to the current employees, who weren't involved with this situation. I was thinking about this yesterday, and it reminded me of other threads where people talk about other companies that are now coasting on their reputations from many years ago, when these companies were under different management, and operating in different environments. In those situations, people say that a company today can't rest on the coat-tails of its past reputation ... it is what the company is doing now that matters the most. I think that by the same respect, the fact that there is a different group of people running A&M today is something to keep in mind.

This situation has only made us even more aware of how important safety training and policies are and we will continue to implement these policies with force and diligence.

I particularly like this statement. Although it is of small consolation for Aju's family, friends, and co-workers, I think that if one bit of good can come out of this situation, it is the learning experience for all companies that employees must be accounted for at all times, and should not be "allowed" or even able to just wander off and disappear.

[PlantGypsy]

Thank you for your answers about the busses and land, it makes sense.
For Aju, ultimately it is not the companies responsibility if someone decides to walk off the block out of their own volition, for clarification. I agree with Scooters comments, this only makes us more strict about safety. Also it's true, silviculture companies do become identified with things from the past after there's a complete change in staff and it's basically a different company using the same name.
It's evident by this page that A&M is going strong and under new management, and there is a reason so many people on this page are excited about going back after planting with them for some years.
I understand that it`s a very sensitive topic, it`s been talked about before in a couple other posts, and I agree: Everything has been said and we should not linger on.

[Scooter]

We had a thread about Aju once already, and one of the other administrators locked it after posting comments on the rationale for locking it. If you're curious, you can search for that thread. I'd like to keep this thread open, but focused on the company. I just deleted a couple posts where there was a misunderstanding between a few people, but we can continue using this thread for content about the current A&M.

[Vanilla-Gorilla]

Whats new from the A&M front?