Pinecone Picking vs Tree Planting

bennygill · Post by **bennygill** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:28 am

Hey guys,

I'm very interested in tree planting... but have also heard about Pinecone picking too.

Does anyone have any information about pinecone picking? Is it better than tree planting? Why would you choose one over the other?

Thanks,
Ben

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:32 am

Cone-picking is done in very short contracts, often in the fall, usually just a couple weeks a year. And the same companies don't always pick every year. So it's more like a random special job that is often done by people with planting experience as an odd job, now and then.

Pandion · Post by **Pandion** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:32 am

I did it for a couple of days one winter. If you enjoy sitting in waist deep snow and getting tendo in your thumbs for $200, go for it.

fluffer · Post by **fluffer** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:58 pm

I don't even understand what this is. Do you go hang around the base of preferable pinetrees and pick their cones off the ground?

Do you pick all the cones? What is the point? To use them to grow new trees? For study? Selling at craft markets? What cones are preferable?

Can you use a rake?

It kind of sounds like work that they'd send people at a rehab facility out to do... or boy scouts.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:09 pm

you pick cones off trees that have been cut down, so the nurseries can grow more trees.
and craft fairs.

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Pandion's pretty close, it's not easy work. The common case is for the tops of trees (pre or post harvesting) are lopped off and left in a random area on a block. You set at them with some tough gloves, some pruning shears, and some white buckets. Usually you get paid per bucket, but I've heard of people on a dayrate. Anyways, you move around the cut sections and chear off the cones, which exerts quite a twist on your cutting hand. The picking hand also gets worked with all the twisting motions. Because you aren't moving as much, you get colder faster, and there's a lot of crap and fresh cut to crawl through with your buckets, so that part is demanding. Sometimes you're working in active settings, so high-vis and hardhats are often the norm. Glasses are usually used, which you want as you poke around in the tree sections.

You don't pick them off the ground- fallen cones are generally all dry and useless. There is a specific stage at which a cone is ripe for the picking. The contractor takes the cones home and has to process them, which I understand requires the drying of the cone and removal of the seed. I believe they may use specially trained squirrels that were smuggled out of a chocolate factory for that part, but I might be a bit mixed up and it may actually be some sort of mechanical separator. In the end, you have just buckets of true seed which is then provided to the party originally tendering the contract (not sure if that is a nursery, licensee, or ministry, but it could be any of them).

That's my take on it. I think you can make decent money doing it and it often occurs when planting is down. The one crew I visited doing the work was treated well by their employer and seemed to be doing okay.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:32 pm

I believe Seneca uses cone-picking to bridge planting/fire & beetle season. I talked to one guy who said the money wasn't bad.

Apparently you're not allowed to steal from squirrel caches, however?

Jimbo the Mook · Post by **Jimbo the Mook** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:33 pm

"It kind of sounds like work that they'd send people at a rehab facility out to do..."

Yep, you pretty much nailed it right there... For the most part the people who do it you would expect to find in a rehab facility, only they ain't exactly rehabilitating... not yet anyway.

I did it for about a week up in Prince George one year, and there were literally people smoking crack in the suburban on the way to work. Crazy slice of life kinda shit... even managed to scare me straight.

robertsonja · Post by **robertsonja** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:05 am

thats just PG for you the place is one giant crack rock i avoid work there at all cost

Post by **Scooter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:06 am

Krahn has done it several times, so he'll probably chip in here eventually.

I believe on some projects, they use a machine that is attached to a helicopter. The unit is dropped over the top of the tree, and it then cuts the top of the tree off, and the helicopter brings the top back to the landing where the pickers are working. I think this is much less common than the approach that Jordan described though

jdtesluk · Post by **jdtesluk** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:21 am

I forgot about that part. Not sure if they use the heli-topper because it gets the tops down for cone-picking without damaging the cones, or if it's done to make the falling easier. I think it's more the former though, as I think it helps separate the tops of the prime cone-yielding trees from the rest of the harvest. I've seen operations where they had pickers working both landings with tops from the heli-topper as well as sections from conventional falling at various spots in the block.

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:46 pm

Well the aerial picking is usually better than planting, 500+averages are not unheard of, a lot of helicopter companies scoop up this work and use machines to seperate cones from branches, putting us out of work.

Ground picking is usually around 200-400$, depending on crew ,terrain, logger production etc. The best money seems to be in alberta these days. You definately burn a lot less calories picking, so in a way it is easier than planting for a lot of people, with similar incomes. It is usually winter work, so expect to work down to minus 20c, however I have done it through july-august some years. Stealing from squirrel caches is a good trick if you can find them.

Tnalp · Post by **Tnalp** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:11 pm

half a dozen Ab gov contracts being tendered as we speak!

krahn · Post by **krahn** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:19 am

aaron's assessment is pretty much accurate from my point of view. i haven't done much aerial stuff and it wasn't any better money, but i can see how it could be.

overall i think picking in alberta is easier money than planting. i don't make as much, but the days are shorter and the learning curve is a lot less steep to make 300-400 a day.

the problem are how rough it is on the hands, and the cold, which makes the hands worse. possibly if one did this for months on end you'd get used to it... or maybe you'd just have long term claw issues, not sure. i'm on my third contact though in 2 years and i love the job, right now i'm up in fort mac with Hudon, it's like a treasure hunt in the arctic.

McgeeMcgee · Post by **McgeeMcgee** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Was wondering if those bids are on BC Bid or some Alberta equivalent.

Tnalp · Post by **Tnalp** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Alberta Purchasing Connection. Some may be closed and/or awarded. It is possible to see the recipients.. sometimes...

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:02 pm

It's like an Easter Egg hunt for money. I steal from the squirrels where I live (Michigan)... but feed them corn. I'll be picking in a few weeks in North Carolina .... Pond Pine logging slash.

fluffer · Post by **fluffer** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:41 pm

This thread has been helpful.

I feel like if I should spend time with squirrels. Learn their ways, their habits, their likes, and their stashing tricks. Become one with the squirrels.

Then breed me a squirrels that I can set loose in the vicinity of next year's picking contract. Maybe GPS them and monitor their movements and stashes. Form a vast army of squirrel labourers that work for me for free. Who needs illegal, cheap foreign labour when you can skillfully manage squirrels?

Tupperfan · Post by **Tupperfan** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:41 pm

I'm currently picking cones (with Krahn) north of Ft. Mac and I'll just say a few things:

1) The atmosphere is way more relaxed. The paperwork and management responsibilities are also quite minimal, as it is on the contract we're doing (a six-pack). However, pulling a trailer loaded with mega-bags full of cones to a nursery located hundreds of klicks away remains quite worrying, as those damn bags are heavy as fuck and can settle in weird ways sometimes...

2) If it's not a heli show (where they bring the tree tops to you), picking in the snow often sucks, as it hides lots of cones. That said, it makes it easier to find squirrel caches, as you can follow their tracks.

3) Squirrel caches are overrated, mostly when said squirrels get lazy, which seems to be the norm around Ft. Mac (but I blame it on the better paying jobs available in the oil sands...) I found 6 on this contract and they're just...disappointing.

4) People with a history of tendinitis should avoid, mostly when picking frozen cones off frozen branches with frozen hands.

5) It makes you miss the excitement of the tree planting season. I've done many picking contracts all over Alberta and I like the job, but it's very plain, boring (even more so than the act of planting), less physically demanding (until you hump your bags full of cones back to the road in 2-3 feet of snow) and I still don't appreciate hotel shows: even when it's decent rooms like the one I currently reside in. I really enjoy my bush camps.

6) Fall, before the first snow, remains the perfect season for the job; You see the cones, it's easier to walk around, it's usually nice and crisp and it also means you won't cancel a work day because it's too cold...

7) You can make pretty good money, but I usually make less in a day than on a planting day (to be fair, the planting days are usually longer). Our current prices per hectolitre are quite good, but the cones aren't as readily available as they would be in the fall.

edit: Well, seems I'm also picking with McgeeMcgee...It's a replant.ca party up here!

RPF · Post by **RPF** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:26 pm

newforest wrote:It's like an Easter Egg hunt for money. I steal from the squirrels where I live (Michigan)... but feed them corn. I'll be picking in a few weeks in North Carolina .... Pond Pine logging slash.

I'm surprised to learn that collecting cones from squirrel caches is still happening in some places. The problem with collecting from squirrel caches is that you don't know where the cones came from and how long the cones have been in the cache (the longer they sit the more chance of the cones being infected with bacteria or viruses that are harmful to the seed) and you may end up with some crappy looking seedlings and poor survival. This was a common practice in coastal BC in the 60's & 70's.

Since then however, most seedlings in BC (coastal for sure) come from seed grown in managed seed orchards usually in conjunction with a nursery. Wild seed collection still happens, but it is sporadic at best and species dependant. Optimum cone picking is dependant on species and can range from two to seven years depending on conifer species.

I've been involved in a few wild collections and there is a bit of science behind it. Prior to picking cones, we need to determine the optimum time to pick them. We've used a helicopter to pick cones from the tops of standing trees or used .22 rifles to shoot cones off trees. The cones (seeds) are then analyzed in the field or taken to a lab to determine whether they are fully developed and hence ready to be picked.

Once we've determined that the cones are ready for picking, fallers would be sent into an area that is slated for harvesting to fall trees for cone collection. Or, more often than not, a helicopter with a cone rake would be hired to remove branches with cones from the tops of standing trees. A ground crew would be ready to pick cones off the branches and place them in 5 gallon buckets. The actual time to pick cones is very short (usually less than 5 days) after which they need to be taken to a facility to be dried, then extract the seed.

I'm not sure of the procedure used in seed orchards, but I suspect that the amount of time actually spent on collecting cone/seed is also rather short.

I'll qualify the above by saying that this is the process used for coastal species (Cedar, Spruce, Douglas Fir, Amabilis Fir, Hemlock). Interior pine may be different.

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:25 pm

hey RPF, that makes me curious. if a forester is trying to source trees for a planting program, how much of a factor is the wild-collected versus orchard seed dynamic? since you were giving coastal examples in the post above, let's say you wanted an order of red cedar. would the supposedly improved genetics of seed orchard trees be preferable to the genetic diversity that i assume trees from wild-collected seed would offer? or vice-versa? im curious as to how much consideration a forester gives to these sorts of things. or do you simply buy the cheapest trees you can find? sorry to get off topic.

robertsonja · Post by **robertsonja** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:19 pm

A friend of mines father works as a forest nursery manager in Nova Scotia and we kind of talked about something similar to this. They apparently select trees that are perfect to the species standards in all different conditions and areas and keep track of which seed has been collected from where. But there isn't really a lot of trees planted in this area so it's a really small nursery.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:42 pm

well for the Great Lakes conifer species, there is a crucial difference to your operations, and that occurs at the nursery. when I wild collect seed, that seed will be grown as bare-root seedlings. poor quality seedlings resulting from a less than perfect seed will be culled when the seedlings are lifted and packed and/or moved on to a transplant bed. it is a much different scenario than growing plugs, where every plug and every seed counts. also, very few of these trees will be going into timber plantations. they will be used more for landscaping (White Pine), or other types of small scale plantings (wildlife habitat); people buying small amounts of seedlings aren't interested in genetics and don't need the extra expense. Jack Pine will be used heavily in plantations, but those plantations are only grown for pulp, not sawlogs, (and actually wildlife habitat - Kirtland Warbler), where genetic provenance is far less important. some Red Pine plantations still get planted, but not much; clearcut/replant is just not a common strategy at all in the northern US. Red Pine is more uniform across it's range anyway and they decided decades ago that it isn't worth worrying too much about provenance, which was very thoroughly scrambled during the huge plantings that went on during the 1930s, which is where seed comes from today. unfortunately, hardly anyone in the USA invests in Red Pine plantings and there is zero interest in Red Pine genetics now. Your mills are driving up the prices for Red Pine stumpage here though, thanks.

It is also true that not every pine cone should be picked from the squirrels. That is where the skill and experience comes in. There is a large buyer 25 miles from where I live. They will take cones from a new picker, but they might not call you back the next year if you bring in too much junk, or they might just flat reject the lot when it is brought to them - Current year crop only! I hope to buy out their equipment one day, they are near retirement age. otherwise I soon hope to build Cone Kiln 2.0 so I can sell more seed instead of cones, though I do OK on small lots using a small greenhouse. Kiln #1 was built for me by someone else and the design failed. too much or not enough McGuyver there.

the bigger problem lately with collecting from the squirrels is global warming. the squirrels are triggered to cut the cones by the length of daylight. the cones are triggered to open by the amount of warm hours they get. Many times there is a good crop, but the squirrels are cutting the cones after the scales have opened, and this is a big problem in White and Red Pine (I'm still learning the Spruces), but is not a problem at all for Jack Pine.

in the southern US, where timberland outperforms the stock market as an investment (but tree planters live as virtual slaves, imo), seed for timber production species (Loblolly Pine) is all from very carefully selected, crossed, etc. genetics, and all comes from dedicated orchards. the current standard is even "MCP" seedlings - Mass Controlled Pollination. Bags with the desired pollen are placed over the flowering branch tips to eliminate the chance of any wild pollen creating the seed. MCP seedlings thus have more uniform performance (straightness, volume gain, rust resistance) than from open pollinated orchards.

I will be picking Pond Pine down there however, a species so undesirable, timber wise, that it will someday be a "Threatened" tree species and it is quite a trick to even find some to pick. There is a small market for the seedlings in wetland reconstruction. I am probably one of the only people who can supply Pond Pine seed anywhere. There is probably someone else out there, but I doubt if you could count the people who could get it for you on all five fingers on one hand. I will be picking it out of logging slash exclusively; it is a serotinous cone like Jack Pine, but there are no Red Squirrels in the south. Only Red Squirrels cache cones I think.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:16 pm

I would also like to say that there are places in the northern US where seed is harvested a little more carefully. The National Forests in Michigan, for example, pick their Red Pine from a quality stand by simply waiting for a good seed year and then doing a harvest timed correctly. They are the type of landowner that can do that.

Also the agencies are more interested in genetics and provenance than the world of private land forestry in the north, at least the Federal ones are....

I am intrigued by some of the technologies mentioned in this thread to get a lot of seed without natural techniques or post-harvest techniques. I bring this up because I know the Black Hills National Forest in South Dakota is looking for a way to bring in large quantities of Ponderosa Pine seed. They have let contracts to do it in the past but I suspect these have failed to deliver the quantity desired, because they have bid it several times - and now they are not even bidding it, they are just simply doing a "Sources Sought" posting, so they can get some ideas on a new way to write a contract. I suspect post-harvest is not an option for them.

If anyone reading this has access to some of the equipment mentioned here, such as a helicopter mounted cone rake (did I read that right?) and you have some way to work in the US, maybe we could work together on that. I would think pine might ripen in South Dakota perhaps a little earlier than species in Canada? (early September I think?)

just a thought.

RPF · Post by **RPF** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:25 pm

mwainwright wrote:hey RPF, that makes me curious. if a forester is trying to source trees for a planting program, how much of a factor is the wild-collected versus orchard seed dynamic? since you were giving coastal examples in the post above, let's say you wanted an order of red cedar. would the supposedly improved genetics of seed orchard trees be preferable to the genetic diversity that i assume trees from wild-collected seed would offer? or vice-versa? im curious as to how much consideration a forester gives to these sorts of things. or do you simply buy the cheapest trees you can find? sorry to get off topic.

As a forester, I am most interested in finding the best seed possible in order to meet the licencee's free growing obligations, and ultimately to grow the best tree possible for the next crop rotation. At the present time, the best seed for red cedar (and several other coastal species) comes from orchard crops, hence that is what I use.

In addition, there is legislation in B.C. that directs licencees to utilize the best seed available when reforesting crown land. For the most part, the "best" seed available generally comes from orchard crops.

From where I sit, the only wild seedlots we are still using are Amablis Fir, and some Yellow Cedar.

Just to clarify one point. The words "improved genetics" is a slight misnomer. Orchard crops are a result of breeding programs carried out over many years. Seed is (or has been) collected from "parent" trees showing specific traits that are desired by foresters, mill owners, land owners, etc. Seed collected from those parents are then sown & grown and tested to determine whether or not the desired traits are replicated in the offspring. Once desired seedlots have been tested and selected, the seed is then registered with government, and can then be used to grow seedlings for planting on crown land.

The word "genetically improved" implies seed where the actual genetic material has been manipulated to meet certain desired traits. The most common example of that come from certain food products (corn, rice, wheat). There is some work going on with trees, but to my knowledge no "genetically improved" seedlings are currently available in B.C. (I may be wrong on that point, but I've never encountered any in my work).

mwainwright · Post by **mwainwright** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:46 pm

well thanks RPF, that is good info. the reason i asked about this is because ive been doing some research into setting up a small-scale nursery with the intention of providing seedling to the forestry sector here on haida gwaii. i originally thought that using wild genetics would be a selling point. i see that is not really the case. so i guess the most feasible plan, short of setting up my own seed orchard, would be to actually purchase seed from an existing orchard and produce seedlings from that. in a way it seems a bit strange to take seed from so few sources and spread them so widely across the province.

r0ckMachine · Post by **r0ckMachine** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:07 pm

I would stick with the wild trees ... and btw, from what I have heard, genetically modified trees have been planted all over BC for over 20 years and its mostly what we are planting at the moment... now it might be through selection like you explained I am not sure, but I would prefer to plant wild trees... the have evolved to what they are and it has taken billions of years and us humans are coming along and fuking it all up. just my opinion.

on a different note, I planted with a tendinitis all year last year and I still have it, its the DeQuervains/intersection syndrome on my tree hand ... just about to go back planting, has anyone here ever had to deal with really bad tendo like this that last a year or more? any advice!!?

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:49 pm

r0ckMachine wrote:on a different note, I planted with a tendinitis all year last year and I still have it, its the DeQuervains/intersection syndrome on my tree hand ... just about to go back planting, has anyone here ever had to deal with really bad tendo like this that last a year or more? any advice!!?

Well the usual that you already know : ice, immobilization with tensor bandage/wrist brace/specific tendonitis brace, anti-inflammatory like Ibuprofen (only for the swelling tho), massage and stretch, warm the wrist when it's cold or wet. But most importantly, REST. There is long term effects to tendonitis, like scar tissue and permanent thickening of the tendon sheath, which will effect your motion. You could also feel chronic pain and stiffness after few years. There is also a boatload of herbs, vitamins and supplements that can ''be used both to treat and to prevent tendonitis, and are anti-inflammatory, nutritive and supportive for connective tissues in general.'' I took that from the WSCA PDF prevention and treatment of tendonitis & repetitve strain injury for treeplanters.

If you had tendonitis last summer and you still feel the effects, I don't know if it's a good idea to go back. You could actually badly injure yourself for good.

PlantinTaders · Post by **PlantinTaders** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:53 pm

I really think the terms "natural" and "genetically modified" need to be qualified here. You may call the seeds produced in orchards "genetically modified", or "unnatural", but when you look at it, that is not always the case. Most seed grown in orchards is, as I understand it, collected from natural sources, grown out in provenances and selected for optimum characteristics. Whether or not this excludes these trees from being "natural" or if there was additional genetic work applied to them remains on the table.

As far as seed zones go I think there is actually quite a lot of consideration put into what areas seed is collected from, and where that seed will eventually be planted. Considerations like average frost times, elevation, insolation and soil characteristics will determine seed zone boundaries. Below you can see a map of the different seed zones within Ontario, which overlap with the forest management units. I imagine there is a division of seed zones not unlike this in BC.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:43 pm

r0ckMachine wrote:I would stick with the wild trees ... and btw, from what I have heard, genetically modified trees have been planted all over BC for over 20 years and its mostly what we are planting at the moment... now it might be through selection like you explained I am not sure, but I would prefer to plant wild trees... the have evolved to what they are and it has taken billions of years and us humans are coming along and fuking it all up. just my opinion.

you might want to stick to eating strictly wild animals and forest gathered berries then, because all other food we eat is the result of genetic selection. all that means is picking seed from multiple sources, planting it, watching what it does, and then next time only using seed from the best of the available sources to get the best possible results. there is nothing being fucked up.

GMO is something completely different than that.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:47 pm

Maybe he was just arguing that we lose some diversity by selecting only the very best every time. Same happens everywhere but it's regrettable none the less.

Gingerplanter · Post by **Gingerplanter** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:14 am

Here are two links that pretty much explain what is being discussed about forest genetics and what not.

http://web.viu.ca/vallee/FRST%20233/For ... %20PNW.pdf

http://web.viu.ca/vallee/FRST%20233/Int ... 0Woods.pdf

RPF · Post by **RPF** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:56 am

Gingerplanter wrote:Here are two links that pretty much explain what is being discussed about forest genetics and what not.

http://web.viu.ca/vallee/FRST%20233/For ... %20PNW.pdf

http://web.viu.ca/vallee/FRST%20233/Int ... 0Woods.pdf

Thanks for posting these links. Excellent read.

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:17 pm

well I hope I didn't take the thread off the rails too far with my only partly relevant USA experience. So after 5 days of picking I did come up with a few questions that would be relevant. I always read here about the use of buckets. On the blocks where you are picking out of logging slash, does anyone use their planting bag? Mine makes the whole thing a lot easier, since there is a good amount of walking involved for me - source trees chipped, so you are looking for just the branches that broke off and weren't skidded to the deck; plus not pure pine blocks cut to start with, with variable cone production, etc. Anyhow my trusty planting bag is way better than buckets for production as you don't have to set the buckets down all the time:

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:20 pm

but if you walk around long enough, you find the Promised Land and it's time to take the bag off ($250 US in 6 hours on this day):

newforest · Post by **newforest** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:23 pm

and I'm still trying to figure out if it is better to use clippers (working by myself I can bust out the trusty Felco's; working with 20something stoners, no $50 tools for them)

with clippers things seem better at first. but you can just twist the cone off with your hands too. the clippers get rosined up some. but twisting them can be slow too. sometimes twisting helps reveal a bad cone that should be rejected; easier to miss that when you clip them. I end up doing both.

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:32 pm

well I hope I didn't take the thread off the rails too far with my only partly relevant USA experience.

It's interesting to see the perspective from south of the border. These photos especially are pretty cool. Keep it up!

aaron · Post by **aaron** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:28 pm

In fresh logged(i mean fresh, trees not de-limbed or skidded) I generally dont stop unless i am gonna be stationary for 1-2 hours anyways, so the bucket works fine, im usually sitting in one spot anyways. After the trees have been processed and you are just scrounging through leftover branches, a planting bag is a pretty good idea as you are moving around a ton.

Thanks for the tip, I have no idea why i have not seen this until now.

PS Your cones look pretty healthy, cept for the open one on the left!

Post by **Scooter** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:41 pm

There have been times that I've been roofing when I wished that I had my bags with me to carry nails and tools.