Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

This one is pretty self-explanatory. This part of the forums is specifically intended to collect health, safety, training, and related information. Unsafe Is Unacceptable.
Post Reply
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

Here's a thread to discuss your feelings on current safety cultures in the industry. If you want to keep your company name anonymous, that's cool.

To start things off, I suggest that you read this post:

http://www.jeremyfcohen.com/tree-planti ... sad-state/

I'll quote the first part of it, but of course if you go to the post you can read much more:
In eight years working in Silviculture, I have been struck by lightning, been driven off loggings roads, almost collided with logging trucks at least three times, been put in compromising situations and felt my life or my well-being in danger countless times. Add to this the fact that I’ve known of a least six or seven deaths, several severe injuries(including someone who can no longer walk) and have witnessed numerous blatant health and safety violations.

Forestry in general is a boys club and a club of hard people with hard attitudes. Yet Silviculture is made up of a diverse grouping of locals, hipsters, hippies, university kids and international travellers. Why then do the hard attitudes regarding health and safety transcend the boundaries of Forestry into the collective psyche of Silviculture workers? I am going to argue that an unaccountability amongst workers, married to an unaccountability and selfishness amongst tree planting companies leads to a situation where our lives are needlessly put in danger.
As a supervisor, this is an issue which has always bothered me. I often feel that no matter how much I preach, all I'm doing is maybe having some sort of immediate effect on the people within my own camp. How can we make the industry more safe as a whole?
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
User avatar
Pandion
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Pandion »

I think the biggest safety issue is the lack of experience amongst drivers at the rookie mills. You have some 19 or 20 year old who has lived in the city their whole life driving a van full of people on FSRs. Combine this with the piece work mentality of needing to maximize the time on the block and you have an inexperienced driver speeding on gravel roads. What do you expect to happen? When I worked up north they made a big deal about having seat belts in the crummy, but by the second shift most had been taken out and put on peoples planting bags. You can't legislate stupid.
Maybe they need to start paying for travel time to discourage speeding or maybe they need to pay drivers a decent wage. Usually drivers get paid 15 or 20 bucks for the day when they are sometimes driving over 4 hours. The most competent and responsible workers want no part of this rip off so you don't get the best drivers driving people to work.
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

When I worked up north they made a big deal about having seat belts in the crummy, but by the second shift most had been taken out and put on peoples planting bags.
That's a problem with a specific company's corporate culture. If that happened at one of the companies that I work for, those planters would be fired in a matter of minutes.

Or is that the culture at a lot of companies?
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
evanodell
Regular Contributor
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by evanodell »

The companies that I've felt unsafe at all had a big focus on production. Foremen would get chewed out if their crew didn't put in enough trees, so the crew would get chewed out by their foreman and the consequence of a day of low production would be a longer workday the next day, with all the resultant speeding. The whole culture, from the top down, was very 'cowboy' and not overly concerned with safety, the unspoken policy being that if you got hurt that was entirely because you fucked up. But the production over everything mentality placed planters in some really stupid and dangerous situations that were very difficult to say no to. For example, three of us were planting out the back of a quad access block and our foreman left the quad with the instructions that I would drive myself and the other two planters out when we were finished, so as to get to open land further down the road a bit quicker. Driving the two other planters out saved maybe five minutes at the end of the day, at extraordinarily unnecessary risk. But the camp culture was such that refusing to carry passengers and simply driving the quad out (which I would have been fine doing) would have resulted in me getting chewed out for fucking over my coworkers and I probably would have wound up being the subject of a couple casual disparaging remarks from the supervisor or one of the other foremen at dinner that evening. While it was mentioned that we had the right to refuse unsafe work, the atmosphere was such that to do so would have negative repercussions for you, of one form or another.

There was also a pervasive feeling that if you refused unsafe work, it would simply get given to the rookie planter next to you, who was at far greater risk of hurting themselves. Which is just a shitty form of coercion.
User avatar
Nate
Forum Moderator
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Nate »

I saw massive improvements in safety from when I started planting in Ontario in 02 to when I finished in BC in the last couple of years.

That said, safety isn't anywhere close to what it is in oil and gas (where I'd argue things have been taken to an extreme in the "safe" direction). My biggest thing is that industry as a whole puts inexperienced, young drivers with fully loaded one tons onto some of the worst roads in the country with little to no training. Vehicle safety is the number one problem in the industry, including quads, in my opinion.

In general, production does contribute to a lot of the problems. I don't see a solution to the most pressing problems in the industry short of more money so contractors can charge unit rates or daily rates (which will not happen in the near future).
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

Hmmm....great blog. It is hard to generalize to an industry based on the experience in one place. Without knowing more, it seems there are multiple failures at play with his former company. One thing that jumps out is accountability from owners to managers to forepersons. This line needs to be based more clearly on safety, with real consequences for failures in compliance.
In my opinion, the compliance of the workers is nowhere near as important as the compliance of foremen, and the determined will of owners and manager to inspect their forepersons AND be willing to fire them if they are found to be unsafe. Certainly the use of production forepersons (and managers) presents a problem, but it would be a mistake to believe that all commissioned companies behave in the same manner. However, most of those that are commissioned lack any sort of clear structure or meaningful system of accountability that holds forepersons and managers accountable for their behaviour. Many attend to their result, but almost never their behaviour. THAT needs to change, and that is where I would start.

There are of course many forces that have inhibited our progress in health and safety. Surely progress has been made, the stats don't lie when it comes to deaths and serious injuries. However, repetitive stress and overwork injuries persist. This is because the industry as a whole continues to fail to address the prices paid to workers, and collectively stampedes forward on the clearly mistaken belief that they can continue to squeeze the life out of young planters for a profit.

I realize that may sound harsh, but again, the statistics do not lie. With the price issues (which have a long way to go to catch up, not just level off, but catch the crap up!), are intersected problems with workforce retention. No wonder we cannot retain our experienced workers, when the industry pays too little, demands too much, and fails to compete with rising energy industries.

However, without giving away the substance of my future publication on the subject (in a summarized manner that poorly communicates the key issues), I believe the failure of safety in forestry should more aptly be seen as the "failure to improve as much as could have". We have shot for the stars, and have congratulated ourselves for reaching Saturn. What has been done is important, and great. However, it is not nearly enough. I locate this failure not in individuals, or workers, or even forepersons. I do not locate it in the BC Forest Safety Council, WorkSafeBC, the Licensees, the contractors, or the Government. I locate it in systems of knowledge. The neo-Weberian in me places a bullseye of blame on systems of bureaucratic management and faulty assemblages of knowledge translation and knowledge mobilization. I hope to lay this out more clearly in a book that I hope to write in the next few years. I just hope I can get my point across fast enough and effectively enough to make a difference.

I note that the people that have chimed in on this thread are among those whose posts I have greatly enjoyed in the past. I commend you all for caring. It is easy to get cynical about the things that are wrong with the industry. Just don't lose focus on what it is that you personally can do to make it better. I think I heard that in a Spiderman movie, or was it something I read on Facebook, I don't know :) Really though, be part of the change, and keep demanding better.
newforest
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by newforest »

Safety? Isn't that what that asshat that makes me wear a hard-hat under a broiling blue sky all day is always talking about? I'd like to kick that asshole with these stupid steel-toe boots I'm wearing. What does that idiot Safety Guy know about how I should drive the truck every morning?
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

Hmm. Not to take away from a serious topic, but I did find this photo to be amusing.
Attachments
Safety.jpg
Safety.jpg (78.75 KiB) Viewed 21463 times
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

jdtesluk wrote:... This is because the industry as a whole continues to fail to address the prices paid to workers, and collectively stampedes forward on the clearly mistaken belief that they can continue to squeeze the life out of young planters for a profit. ...
I don't necessarily agree with this statement. I too use to think that paying planters more would improve safety. The idea was to slow down production slightly (thereby improving safety by reducing a few states of mind that lead to injuries, like rushing, and frustration) while maintaining their regular earnings. We tried this with a crew that was having a few safety issues years ago, with little success. All that the increase in price paid to the planter did was feed the greed. We did not notice any change in production and the poor safety results stayed the same or actually worsened.

I don't know what the answer is, but from my experience this is not it. Just my two bits.
User avatar
Pandion
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Pandion »

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. I too use to think that paying planters more would improve safety. The idea was to slow down production slightly (thereby improving safety by reducing a few states of mind that lead to injuries, like rushing, and frustration) while maintaining their regular earnings. We tried this with a crew that was having a few safety issues years ago, with little success. All that the increase in price paid to the planter did was feed the greed. We did not notice any change in production and the poor safety results stayed the same or actually worsened.
This may be true in the short term. With piece rates, I've always found that the better the price the harder I work, although I don't necessarily agree that this would lead to poorer safety results. I think in the long term higher prices would lead to a higher retention of experienced workers which would likely improve safety. It would also allow for the companies that do pay better prices to obtain more work which would again result in improved safety by having more experienced planters plant more of the trees.

This Fall the company I usually work for was shut out so I had to work for a different outfit. They were much less safe (not having radios for people on their own heli blocks, not having the proper road channels programmed into their radios...) and payed far lower prices than the company I usually work for. I still wanted to make as much money as I could, so I only took three days off over a month long fall season. Because of shitty prices, I was now making unsafe choices while working for a less safe company. The forester got himself a sweet deal though while veteran planters where struggling to make $150/day. It was a sad situation to say the least.
Evergreen
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:56 am
Location: Campbell River

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Evergreen »

I think tree prices paid to planters can influence safety in both a negative and a positive way. Paying higher prices tends to motivate planters to work faster. This can lead to either more or less injuries. I've seen planters running down the hill after bagging out because prices were high. IMO this is one of the leading causes of injury. The old adage "happy people do good work" can be applied to safety, so overall I think fair to better prices affect safety positively. On the other hand people who are being underpaid are more likely to be disgruntled and therefore distracted leading to more likelihood of getting injured.

On the contractor end of things, higher prices allow for more time and effort to be put in to safety. More money would allow for more and better safety training for foremen and supervisors, who could then pass the knowledge on to their crews. Planters could be paid to take time off from production to be involved in safety orientatins, drills and training. Drivers and quad operators could receive more training. In general I think that communication is the one factor that would pay the best dividends in improving safety in every aspect of planting. The more people understand the hazards associated with the work, the more likely they are to avoid them. Higher prices would allow contractors to run shorter shifts and shorter days, thereby not exhausting planters. This is particularly true at the start of the season when planters are subject to tendonitis. If a forester were to pay extra money to their contractor, as RPF did, it would be best directed to subsidizing planters time at season start-up so they could ease in to the work while receiving more training.
Mike
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:10 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Mike »

I do appreciate the conversation about the intersection between prices and safety.

I think that if prices are perceived to be typically good (say, 6/10) and you get a block that is excellent (say 10/10), or perceived to be overpriced or generously priced, then people are going to start to engage in dangerous behaviours (running down hills) to try to make more (or take a personal best).

I think if prices are perceived to be typically good (say, 6/10) and you get a block that is perceived to be poor (a similar block at the same price, but it happens to be very rocky), then you get planters who are either frustrated or angry and engage in dangerous behaviours (pounding through rock), or who try to speed up and take risks to make their standard earnings. I think this is particularly a problem when planters don't trust companies to reprice bad blocks properly (which is about all but 3 of the companies I worked for).

I think if prices are perceived to be typically bad (say, 3/10), planters get frustrated. You get a roving crew of frustrated planters who are trying to work harder and harder to make their money, and thus cut corners.

I think the optimal payment scheme is one where prices are perceived to be consistently good (6-8 out of 10) with no blocks that are mysteriously overpriced and a company that is trusted to boost wages substantially when payments on a block underperform, and be transparent about it. So often, I'll see a crews wage cut in half, with a follow up of "here's 1 cent/an extra 15$ a person, that fixes things, right?" which I think is a good way to increase frustration and diminish trust.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I also think there is a substantial tie in here to psychological safety. I'd guess that more planters don't return and don't make it through seasons as a result of psychological harms than physical harms. Trusting your employer to treat you with respect and pay you in a way that seems fair and consistent is a great psychological boon. I once saw a planter pick a fight with the camp cook on the second last day of the season, as a result of a wide variety of factors, including psychological harms related to poor pricing.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And I think the last tie in here is related to safety and fatigue. As prices go down, sometimes planters pressure employers to work longer days (to keep earnings up) or more days per month (to keep earnings up) or both. Sometimes the pressure comes from the employer --- I seriously think that some of the companies I've worked for have said "Well, if we work them an hour longer and cut prices 10%, it'll produce the same wages, right? That'll be how we low-bid this BCTS work and win it!" As planters work more hours, and harder, injuries happen.

I worked a schedule of 3&1, 8 hours on the block, this season. When the drives got up to 2 hours + (12 hour round trip days) even that started to feel long. I've worked a 6 day shift of 10-12 hour portal to portal (which of course, never shows up that way on my EI stubs for some strange reason), and at the end of that, everything is dangerous --- especially your driver, who may be a foreperson who has extra duties in the evening.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You want the safest workers? You treat them consistently well - not inconsistently well --- and provide them with lots of rest. RPF, I won't buy your annecdote for a second until I see the data analysis around it. How long did you try this experiment? Did you just try it with the one safety problematic crew? What sort of difference in wages did you see? Were they also being provided with enough rest? Did you do something like (24 twelve hour days at 250$ = 6000$, becomes 20 ten hour days days at 325$ = 6500$) ? Perhaps the answer is you just had a slapdash and haphazard crew that was going to be terrible regardless of what you did. But I'd love more info around your experiment.
All of my company reviews and experience (The Planting Company, Windfirm, ELF, Folklore, Dynamic, Timberline, Eric Boyd, Wagner, Little Smokey, Leader, plus my lists for summer work and coastal) can be found at the start of the Folklore review due to URL and character limits.

Folklore, 2011: http://tinyurl.com/anl6mkd
PlantinTaders
Regular Contributor
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by PlantinTaders »

RPF wrote: I don't necessarily agree with this statement. I too use to think that paying planters more would improve safety. The idea was to slow down production slightly (thereby improving safety by reducing a few states of mind that lead to injuries, like rushing, and frustration) while maintaining their regular earnings. We tried this with a crew that was having a few safety issues years ago, with little success. All that the increase in price paid to the planter did was feed the greed. We did not notice any change in production and the poor safety results stayed the same or actually worsened.

I don't know what the answer is, but from my experience this is not it. Just my two bits.
You have a vested interest in believing this to be true. I doubt you can deny there is pressure on you from your employer to reduce costs. Silviculture seems to unfortunately be viewed more as a cost than investment in this industry, and keeping the prices low and the serfs poor is an effective way to mitigate that cost. Convincing yourself that the serfs would only hurt themselves more if you paid them right is a convenient way to justify this ethos.

If my guess as to who you work for is right, I would say that in my limited experience, you have some of the lowest priced trees in the country. ("Priced" = ratio of terrain difficulty, quality expectations etc. to tree price) I am by no means a super experienced expert with a handle on pricing everywhere, but I've planted a handful of provinces on some pretty bad contracts, and you guys are right near the bottom as far as pricing/lucrativeness goes. My conversations with other serfs seem to uphold these findings.

Now, I would guess that in your limited experiment, these planters saw a chance to recoup some of their "losses" or poor earnings working for you, and went hard when the opportunity to earn good wages was finally presented. This predictably resulted in more injuries/worse safety results.

I take exception to the phrase "feed the greed" in that context, if you are a planter trying to pay your bills for the year on a marginal contract and you suddenly get the opportunity to make what you should be making, "fuel the desperation" better describes the mindset you find yourself in. Also if you did not notice any change in production, in what way did you find the greed was being fed?
Evergreen wrote:I think tree prices paid to planters can influence safety in both a negative and a positive way. Paying higher prices tends to motivate planters to work faster. This can lead to either more or less injuries. I've seen planters running down the hill after bagging out because prices were high. IMO this is one of the leading causes of injury.
I can tell you at least one of those planters, after several contracts from that client, working for several contractors, with poor to marginal earnings, was in a desperate place. They saw a chance to finally "catch up" when earning potential was finally good, and over exerted themselves while executing poor judgement.
Evergreen wrote:The old adage "happy people do good work" can be applied to safety, so overall I think fair to better prices affect safety positively. On the other hand people who are being underpaid are more likely to be disgruntled and therefore distracted leading to more likelihood of getting injured.

On the contractor end of things, higher prices allow for more time and effort to be put in to safety. More money would allow for more and better safety training for foremen and supervisors, who could then pass the knowledge on to their crews. Planters could be paid to take time off from production to be involved in safety orientatins, drills and training. Drivers and quad operators could receive more training. In general I think that communication is the one factor that would pay the best dividends in improving safety in every aspect of planting. The more people understand the hazards associated with the work, the more likely they are to avoid them. Higher prices would allow contractors to run shorter shifts and shorter days, thereby not exhausting planters. This is particularly true at the start of the season when planters are subject to tendonitis. If a forester were to pay extra money to their contractor, as RPF did, it would be best directed to subsidizing planters time at season start-up so they could ease in to the work while receiving more training.
Some very good points.
Mike wrote:I do appreciate the conversation about the intersection between prices and safety.

I think that if prices are perceived to be typically good (say, 6/10) and you get a block that is excellent (say 10/10), or perceived to be overpriced or generously priced, then people are going to start to engage in dangerous behaviours (running down hills) to try to make more (or take a personal best).

I think if prices are perceived to be typically good (say, 6/10) and you get a block that is perceived to be poor (a similar block at the same price, but it happens to be very rocky), then you get planters who are either frustrated or angry and engage in dangerous behaviours (pounding through rock), or who try to speed up and take risks to make their standard earnings. I think this is particularly a problem when planters don't trust companies to reprice bad blocks properly (which is about all but 3 of the companies I worked for).

I think if prices are perceived to be typically bad (say, 3/10), planters get frustrated. You get a roving crew of frustrated planters who are trying to work harder and harder to make their money, and thus cut corners.

I think the optimal payment scheme is one where prices are perceived to be consistently good (6-8 out of 10) with no blocks that are mysteriously overpriced and a company that is trusted to boost wages substantially when payments on a block underperform, and be transparent about it. So often, I'll see a crews wage cut in half, with a follow up of "here's 1 cent/an extra 15$ a person, that fixes things, right?" which I think is a good way to increase frustration and diminish trust.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I also think there is a substantial tie in here to psychological safety. I'd guess that more planters don't return and don't make it through seasons as a result of psychological harms than physical harms. Trusting your employer to treat you with respect and pay you in a way that seems fair and consistent is a great psychological boon. I once saw a planter pick a fight with the camp cook on the second last day of the season, as a result of a wide variety of factors, including psychological harms related to poor pricing.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And I think the last tie in here is related to safety and fatigue. As prices go down, sometimes planters pressure employers to work longer days (to keep earnings up) or more days per month (to keep earnings up) or both. Sometimes the pressure comes from the employer --- I seriously think that some of the companies I've worked for have said "Well, if we work them an hour longer and cut prices 10%, it'll produce the same wages, right? That'll be how we low-bid this BCTS work and win it!" As planters work more hours, and harder, injuries happen.

I worked a schedule of 3&1, 8 hours on the block, this season. When the drives got up to 2 hours + (12 hour round trip days) even that started to feel long. I've worked a 6 day shift of 10-12 hour portal to portal (which of course, never shows up that way on my EI stubs for some strange reason), and at the end of that, everything is dangerous --- especially your driver, who may be a foreperson who has extra duties in the evening.
Also some very good points.
Mike wrote: You want the safest workers? You treat them consistently well - not inconsistently well --- and provide them with lots of rest. RPF, I won't buy your annecdote for a second until I see the data analysis around it. How long did you try this experiment? Did you just try it with the one safety problematic crew? What sort of difference in wages did you see? Were they also being provided with enough rest? Did you do something like (24 twelve hour days at 250$ = 6000$, becomes 20 ten hour days days at 325$ = 6500$) ? Perhaps the answer is you just had a slapdash and haphazard crew that was going to be terrible regardless of what you did. But I'd love more info around your experiment.
Props for calling her on that Mike. One informal, haphazard experiment where you found exactly the results you were looking for isn't enough to convince me of anything.
Onterrible? Albertarded.
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

Evergreen wrote: ... I think tree prices paid to planters can influence safety in both a negative and a positive way...
On the contractor end of things, higher prices allow for more time and effort to be put in to safety. More money would allow for more and better safety training for foremen and supervisors, who could then pass the knowledge on to their crews. Planters could be paid to take time off from production to be involved in safety orientations, drills and training. Drivers and quad operators could receive more training. In general I think that communication is the one factor that would pay the best dividends in improving safety in every aspect of planting. The more people understand the hazards associated with the work, the more likely they are to avoid them. Higher prices would allow contractors to run shorter shifts and shorter days, thereby not exhausting planters. This is particularly true at the start of the season when planters are subject to tendonitis. If a forester were to pay extra money to their contractor, as RPF did, it would be best directed to subsidizing planters time at season start-up so they could ease in to the work while receiving more training.
Good point, and in theory this makes sense. However, in my experience, I haven't seen this put into practice, although that could just be due to the contractors I'm working with. Can anyone on this site provide us with an example of this actually occurring - ie. where a contractor spends the time necessary to thoroughly & properly train and work with his crew to improve safety. I'm talking more than just handing out a piece of paper for the planter to read and sign. I also mean where the crew is very receptive and open to receiving that training and is not worried about the pay that they may be losing out on by attending these safety training sessions?
Mike wrote:... RPF, I won't buy your annecdote for a second until I see the data analysis around it. How long did you try this experiment? Did you just try it with the one safety problematic crew? What sort of difference in wages did you see? Were they also being provided with enough rest? Did you do something like (24 twelve hour days at 250$ = 6000$, becomes 20 ten hour days days at 325$ = 6500$) ? Perhaps the answer is you just had a slapdash and haphazard crew that was going to be terrible regardless of what you did. But I'd love more info around your experiment.
My experiment of increasing prices in the hopes of reducing injuries was a one-off short term project. I don't have any hard numbers to show since this was an experiment I tried over 25 years ago with another employer, and whatever numbers may have existed are long gone. I just remember anecdotally that it didn't work as we expected. What I do recall is seeing planters moving just as fast or faster, which as someone pointed out, may be related to catching up on earnings after a period of low pay. In addition, I remember that the number of repetitive strain injuries actually increased (again possibly due to faster "catch up" planting). I don’t think the contractor changed is work schedule either. Remember this is going back a number of years where safety wasn’t viewed as important as it is today, and in the end it appeared to me to be a quick money grab more than an incentive to work safer.
Pandion wrote: … I think in the long term higher prices would lead to a higher retention of experienced workers which would likely improve safety. It would also allow for the companies that do pay better prices to obtain more work which would again result in improved safety by having more experienced planters plant more of the trees…
This may be true, but how do we properly prepare the younger new generation of tree planters to work safely from the start?

I’m finding this an interesting topic. We’ve supposedly come a long way in safety within the silviculture industry over the last 25 to 30 years, but the more things change, the more they stay the same. I mean, why are we still talking about the same safety issues that we had years ago?

In my opinion, and unless there is a huge culture change within the entire tree planting community, the only way I see safety significantly improving within the industry as a whole is to impose mandatory safety rules & certification on all contractors. This will also need to be strongly enforced by everyone involved in the industry starting with the individual tree planter, the supervisor, the owner, the forester/checker, and the licencee.

I think that any “mandatory” rules need to be a collaborative effort by all parties. Imposing rules without buy-in from everyone will only lead to dissatisfaction and possibly rebellion which will in the end revert back to the same old issues coming up over and over again.

I think once everyone is on the same page with regards to safety, prices should become more or less stable without huge fluctuations as we are seeing in recent bid results. Or am I being too naive here?
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

I should clarify- the "squeezing" issue intersects with safety only in key areas. It should not (my bad) be presented as a blanket statement, but instead a specific type of pressure (among many) that affects behaviour and decision-making. It has both specific and general affects.
First, workers and repetitive stress. Yes, you can argue that higher prices will cause even more damage. However, I would suggest that young workers that do not yet know their limits, will push themselves in harder ground not knowing whether or not it is really worth it. Also, stubborn workers that are obsessed with their "average" or their "minimum" will press to achieve it when things are tough. This is an ego issue, and a subjective thought, but I have seen it first hand.
Second, commissioned forepersons. I found, in my studies of 1400 employees, that those in companies where forepersons are paid by commission (instead of salary) were significantly more likely to engage in unsafe acts, and to cite unsafe acts by their supervisors. The "squeezing" starts from the top, and the pressure is felt through every step of the labour hierarchy. Moreover, it is manifest in clearly reported patterns of attitudes and behaviour.
That being said, the "squeezing" should also be seen as affecting contractors, and this may be the most important point of all. The effort of licensees to grind contractors down and down and down, leaves less and less to pay for other key priorities, such as proper supervision, H&S administration and training, and funds to support the collective will to make safety a number one priority instead of a number one catchphrase. Some achieve that priority better than others, but when the survival of your business is handing by a penny, corners are inevitably cut.
So in sum, the price issue should not be (and I concede my error) be presented only as a general worker-contractor issue only, and it is not simply a rational calculation of effort versus reward that plays out in the worker's mind. There are specific impacts that occur in specific circumstances, and the industry would be well served in examining specific instances in which financial considerations affect specific decisions.
As per the general impact of prices on worker health and safety, this goes beyond easy indicators. I believe the general economic conditions for workers have deteriorated due to the failure to keep up with inflation. As a result, the "norm" of what is required of a worker to make a decent wage has continued to shift upwards. This shift occurs somewhat unconsciously in the workers' mind in the sense that they do not calculate effort versus reward on a daily basis, and can only generally assess the deterioration of the economy in their job. For new workers, there is no sense of change, only of what is, that THAT IS that you simply have to produce a lot to make a buck. THere is no way to argue the fact that workers put in more trees now than they used to, and that prices have not kept pace with inflation. These are indisputable facts. Workers on a daily basis encounter a more demanding industry, with fewer of the fun free wheeling counter-culture elements that used to make planting more of a cult than a job. Simply put, this grates on the soul, the mind, and the body. Even without comprehension of the specific nature of the changes in the industry, the human organism is affected. Forgive me for writing so qualititatively, but I am both an ethonographer and a sociologist. My main point, is that the general shift in the environment that is planting has suffered as a result of economic pressures. I believe that this has effected the resiliency of workers to endure their job without injury and suffering (or at least more of it). I will seek to expound upon this a bit later, but I think it goes beyond what I had written previously.
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

Can anyone on this site provide us with an example of this actually occurring - ie. where a contractor spends the time necessary to thoroughly & properly train and work with his crew to improve safety.
I can provide some numbers for my own camp at Folklore. I went back five years and found the pre-season course organizer spreadsheet. I then blanked out all the names and replaced with their positions within the camp. Also deleted a lot of other stuff from the spreadsheet, like course locations, times, class sizes, all that sort of stuff that isn't relevant. The resulting excerpt is posted below.

Note that the year that I chose was before Folklore increased the minimum guidelines for training within the camps. Now, there is a higher number of planters required on each crew to be "qualified backups" for three key areas: ATV use, Driver training, and Level 1 first aid. Essentially, we're now at the point where on each six-person crew, a minimum of two people (foreman and at least one planter) must have driver training, ATV training, and OFA1. On the bigger crews of over six, that number increases to three for ATV & OFA1, and four for drivers (to account for long drivers and tired drivers). Add to this that there need to be three more planters (minimum) in camp, above and beyond the above per-crew numbers, with the same courses. Add to that the fact that every single supervisor, foreman, checker, and cook needs to have the training. So in the end, in a camp of fifty-odd people, there usually 20+ people with all of these courses.

There are a lot of other courses (not all listed on the graphic below) that are required for various management personnel (myself, foremen, checkers, cooks). Some of the courses in this list are: TDG (everyone), S-100 fire suppression, Danger Tree Assessor, chain saw training, BCTS EMS training, various supervisory and liability/risk management courses, etc. And we also usually have six (minimum) Level 3 OFA's in camp.

Folklore covers the cost of all courses. They also pay daily Living Out allowances for the days when the workers are in courses, to help subsidize the cost of food and motels that they have to cover when showing up several days before the season starts. On top of that, they also pay out various per diem accounts for people with the some of the higher level courses who are officially responsible for overseeing and managing certain parts of ongoing operations (ie. OFA's and a few other positions).

Without having seen any accounting summaries of the training costs in a particular season, I do know what the approximate tuitions are for most of these courses, and my guess is that annual training costs for my camp alone are probably in the range of $40,000 to $60,000 for a single summer. Multiply that by five camps, and you're starting to talk about some real money.

And this isn't just a focus on Folklore. Sure, they are intensely concerned about safety of the planters, but I wouldn't say that other similar large companies don't do the same thing. You're going to see roughly the same commitment at many of the large companies like Brinkman, Summit, Spectrum, etc. etc. Many of the large companies are also starting to take initiatives to use technology to try to help monitoring driving, which in my mind is the biggest problem in the industry by far. Things like GPS devices in the entire fleet that can be monitored through satellite and email/text alerts by the head office, and dashboard cameras. Several companies have already implemented these technologies to varying degrees (GPS especially, and dash cams are just becoming of interest).

So going back to one of the original points where a camp culture that blatantly disregarded safety was brought up, I think that in some cases the companies are providing the tools but the problem is in the camp and crew management, setting bad examples. I obviously have a very compartmentalized view of the industry because I've only worked at half a dozen different companies over the past five years, and I'm trying to get insights from talking to other planters, which again can be biased. But my feeling right now is that the biggest problem is in the mid-management layers. I acknowledge that this could be incorrect. I sometimes wish that I could have as broad a view of the industry as someone like Jordan who has audited dozens of companies and thousands of planters.

Also, it's hard to have this discussion when the differences between companies can be so significant, especially when trying to compare larger Interior operations with smaller Coastal outfits. And also comparing apples to oranges when you're comparing companies where the majority of planters have 8+ seasons of experience to ones with significant numbers of planters having less than four years of experience. Those companies with heavy experience factors may not do a lot of training because they assume (usually correctly) that a fair number of their workers have had this type of training in the past at other companies. But maybe that's a weakness. A lot of training courses should be repeated every couple years so you don't forget the content and the lessons.

When looking at the list below, remember that this is just "additional" training needed for that season, and doesn't include courses that the individuals would have taken in past seasons. A full summary of all training including past courses for the group below would be about twice as long.
Attachments
course_list_2010.jpg
course_list_2010.jpg (549.84 KiB) Viewed 21337 times
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
Mike
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:10 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Mike »

My experiment of increasing prices in the hopes of reducing injuries was a one-off short term project. I don't have any hard numbers to show since this was an experiment I tried over 25 years ago with another employer, and whatever numbers may have existed are long gone. I just remember anecdotally that it didn't work as we expected. What I do recall is seeing planters moving just as fast or faster, which as someone pointed out, may be related to catching up on earnings after a period of low pay. In addition, I remember that the number of repetitive strain injuries actually increased (again possibly due to faster "catch up" planting). I don’t think the contractor changed is work schedule either. Remember this is going back a number of years where safety wasn’t viewed as important as it is today, and in the end it appeared to me to be a quick money grab more than an incentive to work safer.
I deeply respect and appreciate the honesty of this response, RPF. Thank you. I think that it might be fair to say while I can appreciate how this would sway your opinion about the variance between price and injury, that it isn't sufficient information to be conclusive - there is a relatively well known psychological phenomenon where when a person have limited data, a person over-values the certainty of that data, and that might be occurring here? I'd love to see to see a mill and company try a season long serious experiment with this, but I think it's unlikely to occur.

When I was at Folklore, there was a culture of dismissiveness towards injuries; people referring to receiving first aid as fagging, forepersons complaining that too many people got injured, forepersons encouraging planters to push through injuries. I've heard that has since changed, as it was largely centered around people that no longer work in the industry. Planter attitudes and management attitudes are definitely a factor.

Even when working at one of what is referred to as the better companies in the industry, I've seen drivers do sketchy things. The entire industry could use a slow down and a calm down, and that's going to come from people being confident and relaxed about the fact that they will get what they need and be treated fairly in the duration.
All of my company reviews and experience (The Planting Company, Windfirm, ELF, Folklore, Dynamic, Timberline, Eric Boyd, Wagner, Little Smokey, Leader, plus my lists for summer work and coastal) can be found at the start of the Folklore review due to URL and character limits.

Folklore, 2011: http://tinyurl.com/anl6mkd
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

When I was at Folklore, there was a culture of dismissiveness towards injuries;
I can't comment on the other camps, since each camp is run fairly independently, although one would hope that the standard approaches to stuff like safety, regulations, etc. would be fairly consistent from camp to camp.

Of course you're commenting on when you were in my own camp. I think that yes, there has been a significant change since then (for the better), but even what you're referring to wasn't the entire camp, it was just a portion that had attitudes that weren't in line with what I like to see. We certainly tried to address that issue immediately after you mentioned it. But of course, I'm biased because it's my own camp, and you'd be better off talking to people who have worked for me more recently.
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

Scooter wrote: I can provide some numbers for my own camp at Folklore. I went back five years and found the pre-season course organizer spreadsheet. I then blanked out all the names and replaced with their positions within the camp. Also deleted a lot of other stuff from the spreadsheet, like course locations, times, class sizes, all that sort of stuff that isn't relevant. The resulting excerpt is posted below.
Thanks for the information Scooter. I don't think I've seen anything this detailed before. It's good to see that at least one company is taking safety as seriously as you are. I hope there are others doing similar things.
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

jdtesluk wrote: … The effort of licensees to grind contractors down and down and down, leaves less and less to pay for other key priorities, such as proper supervision, H&S administration and training, and funds to support the collective will to make safety a number one priority instead of a number one catchphrase. Some achieve that priority better than others, but when the survival of your business is handing by a penny, corners are inevitably cut. …
I can’t speak for other licensees, but I’ve never once asked our contractors to cut corners when it comes to safety, in fact quite the opposite. When I put out a package for contractors to provide bids on, I specifically spell out our safety expectations that we strongly enforce during the project. It’s therefore our expectation that contractors will build our safety standards into their bid prices. Contractors who later fail at meeting our expectations are told to straighten up immediately, or their contracts are terminated, and they are not invited back to bid on future projects.

Regarding the statement that licensees “grind down prices”, again in my experience that isn’t the case. It’s true that I’ve challenged some bid prices, however, as long as the contractor can provide reasonable rationale I usually accept the price as quoted. From my perspective, it seems more like a cutthroat attitude between the various contractors bidding on work who tend to grind down the prices.
Mike wrote: … The entire industry could use a slow down and a calm down, and that's going to come from people being confident and relaxed about the fact that they will get what they need and be treated fairly in the duration.
Well said.
newforest
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by newforest »

The traditional way to get into a business is to offer to do something for cheaper than the other guy. A way to cut corners on prices in contracting is to cut corners on safety. That will never change.

Neither will the transient nature of planting labor. It will never be a year-round job and there will always be a lot of turn-over, even though some people take to the work, I don't think there would ever be enough of them to get the work done, and thus always new people involved who have never thought about safety.

And given the seasonal nature of the work, the planters will try to maximize their earnings, that won't change either.

So safety training and requirements have to be designed with those facts in mind, and I think those facts are independent of price.

I would say that there is a certain pressure in a tree-planting business = the date terms of the contract. That pressure leads to poor safety decisions I think. And I have begun to feel this is a little more unnecessary than it used to be. When planting bare-root seedlings, I have always thought the most critical number to the success of a job, as in the survival % success, is the date on the calendar. And really seedling survival should be the ultimate goal of everyone involved, though I'll leave it to each reader to consider how true that actually is.

But I have to wonder how much the completion date matters with plug / containerized seedlings. Is this one of those things that flows from "my forestry textbook said…", as when a Forester threatens to ding you for leaving a just-refrigerated box of plugs out with no tarp over them on a very cold cloudy day?

In the U.S. south-east now, Weyerhaeuser reached a point where they were planting 11 months out of 12 in some districts. Is one month too frozen to plant? No, one month is just straight too hot for the planters to take it. They may have backed off that schedule a little bit as June and August are pretty insane planting conditions too. But not for carefully grown and handled plug seedlings on wet sites. (Late summer / early fall planted seedlings can be double the size of seedlings planted in the middle of winter, after the following growing season)

So a question I have is, has anyone considered changing from let's-hire-as-many-rookies-as-we-can-to-get-R-done-by-July-1-no-matter-what vs simply letting a veteran crew plant professionally all the way into July? Has anyone looked into survival rates with plugs in the 3rd week of June vs the 2nd week of July? What if you plant all your dry soils / south exposures first and then plant your best water-retaining organics with high water table type sites / north exposures last, is the date as important then?

(All dates adjusted for your planting calendars).
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

RPF wrote:
Regarding the statement that licensees “grind down prices”, again in my experience that isn’t the case. It’s true that I’ve challenged some bid prices, however, as long as the contractor can provide reasonable rationale I usually accept the price as quoted. From my perspective, it seems more like a cutthroat attitude between the various contractors bidding on work who tend to grind down the prices.

.
That is nice to hear, but it absolutely is not the norm. I've heard case after case of licensees dumping their preferred company for a new lower bidder, or confronting existing clients with quotes from competitors and demanding a price decrease. Nothing personal RPF, it's not a blanket accusation against all licensees. However, forestry companies (not all, but most) have played a huge role in driving prices downwards. As for the idea of building safety expectations into the bid prices, that sounds nice. I hope that all licensees think this way. However, in the end there is only one pot of money, and the pressure to do more for less is beyond any doubt a product of the negotiation between contractors and licensees.
Yes, it is hard to pinpoint the exact moment when financial pressures cause safety to be compromised, but to suggest that it does not occur, and that licensee pressure is not a big part of it simply defies logic. Sure cutthroat contractors are also part of it, but please don't seek to pin the blame on one location in the chain, and pretend corporate imperatives for profit are not at play.
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

confronting existing clients with quotes from competitors and demanding a price decrease
I've also heard from numerous contractors all over the province about exactly this type of pressure that mills (and certain government agencies) often try to exert. It makes me so mad sometimes. I'll hear a forester talking about how concerned they are about safety, but then the feeling you get when you walk away is that while the forester usually does care, because he/she usually meets most of the planters and gets to know them, the mill's owners/shareholders really don't care that much. I mean, some of them do truly worry about the welfare of the planters, but to a lot of other mills, I feel that they're mostly worried about an incident because it's a blip against their safety record and looks bad on the year-end corporate reports.

I just wrote three angry paragraphs then deleted them. I'm going to go have a glass of wine and cool down.
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
Scooter
Site Administrator
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:34 pm
Location: New Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Scooter »

I've been thinking about this subject today. I wonder how helpful it would be if BCTS (and maybe some mills) put clauses into their contracts saying that, just as a random hypothetical example:
"The successful bidder must provide proof of training certification for a number of personnel assigned to the job. The minimum number of qualified workers for each type of training shall be, at a minimum, the following:

BCTS EMS Training: 18 workers
BCFSC Driver Safety Training: 15 workers
WorkSafe OFA3 First Aid: 6 workers
WorkSafe OFA1 First Aid: 12 workers
Danger Tree Assessor: 4 workers
WHMIS: All workers
S-100 Fire Suppression: 8 workers

Failure to meet the above requirements shall result in a fine of $1000/day being assessed against the contractor for the number of work-days required to complete the contract."

This seems like a radical idea. Some additional thoughts:
- Those numbers need not be the same for every contract. Numbers like that could be minimums for large contracts of a few million trees, which are traditionally performed by large bush camps. For smaller coastal contracts and motel jobs with smaller crews, the numbers would be revised downward based upon the assessment of the specific regional office.
- The $1000/day fine may seem high, but hey, BCTS is willing to fine us thousands of dollars per day if we plant trees after June 21st, even though that has minimal physiological validity.
- If BCTS and the mills can make suggestions like "you must wear hi-vis," then forcing minimum training levels should be a no-brainer.
- A few short-sighted contractors may be rather incensed that I even suggest this. But hey, maybe you're in favor of saving money up front and just making a bigger payout down the road when you kill an employee?

If the expectations are spelled out up front, it puts each company on a level playing field. The planters would benefit from more training, the contractors would benefit from more training, and you might even get a tiny bit less employee turnover in the long term, which benefits the mills and the foresters.
Free download of "Step By Step" training book: www.replant.ca/digitaldownloads
Personal Email: jonathan.scooter.clark@gmail.com

Sponsor Tree Planting: www.replant-environmental.ca
(to build community forests, not to be turned into 2x4's and toilet paper)
User avatar
Nate
Forum Moderator
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Nate »

jdtesluk wrote:Workers on a daily basis encounter a more demanding industry, with fewer of the fun free wheeling counter-culture elements that used to make planting more of a cult than a job.
This is the real factor that will change the industry I think. If planting becomes just manual work, period, then we're headed for the American model. Planting will be a TFW activity with the general quality of planting going down across the board. I'd be shocked if planting looks in 20 years like it does today.
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

Scooter wrote:I've been thinking about this subject today. I wonder how helpful it would be if BCTS (and maybe some mills) put clauses into their contracts saying that, just as a random hypothetical example:
"The successful bidder must provide proof of training certification for a number of personnel assigned to the job. The minimum number of qualified workers for each type of training shall be, at a minimum, the following:

BCTS EMS Training: 18 workers
BCFSC Driver Safety Training: 15 workers
WorkSafe OFA3 First Aid: 6 workers
WorkSafe OFA1 First Aid: 12 workers
Danger Tree Assessor: 4 workers
WHMIS: All workers
S-100 Fire Suppression: 8 workers

Failure to meet the above requirements shall result in a fine of $1000/day being assessed against the contractor for the number of work-days required to complete the contract."

This seems like a radical idea. Some additional thoughts:
- Those numbers need not be the same for every contract. Numbers like that could be minimums for large contracts of a few million trees, which are traditionally performed by large bush camps. For smaller coastal contracts and motel jobs with smaller crews, the numbers would be revised downward based upon the assessment of the specific regional office.
- The $1000/day fine may seem high, but hey, BCTS is willing to fine us thousands of dollars per day if we plant trees after June 21st, even though that has minimal physiological validity.
- If BCTS and the mills can make suggestions like "you must wear hi-vis," then forcing minimum training levels should be a no-brainer.
- A few short-sighted contractors may be rather incensed that I even suggest this. But hey, maybe you're in favor of saving money up front and just making a bigger payout down the road when you kill an employee?

If the expectations are spelled out up front, it puts each company on a level playing field. The planters would benefit from more training, the contractors would benefit from more training, and you might even get a tiny bit less employee turnover in the long term, which benefits the mills and the foresters.
Well put and this is what I've more or less been saying and doing for a number of years now.

The Worksafe First Aid requirements & S-100 training requirements are mandated by legislation so I don't think that needs to be written into a formal contract. What I do as a licensee is ask for proof of certification for the designated First Aid attendants and keep those on the contractor file in my office. I also periodically visit each first aid attendant and review the on-site safety protocols and the ETV to ensure that they are following Worksafe and our own company rules & guidelines.

The other training requirements (plus a few others) are also part of our safety expectations and spelled out in our bid package. Although they are not specifically written into a contract, I do re-iterate the safety training during our pre-work meeting with the crews, and will request proof of each individual's training. Anyone not meeting our "mandatory" training requirements will be asked to get the training, or they are not allowed to work on the contract until such time that the training is done. Of course this means that the forester in charge of the contract must follow up with the contractor/planter to ensure that this is being done - which again is something I make a priority of doing.

I'm not a fan of issuing fines, but rather simply state that anyone not having proper training for a job will not be allowed to do that work - period, end of discussion. Of course if the contractor/worker refuses to co-operate, he risks losing his contract/job and the ability to ever work for me again.

Let's remember that safety is also a responsibility of the individual planter. It's up to the worker to ensure that they are working safely. If the worker feels unsafe about doing a job, it probably is, and they should stop and ask for help.
Mike
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:10 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Mike »

It's up to the worker to ensure that they are working safely. If the worker feels unsafe about doing a job, it probably is, and they should stop and ask for help.
And make substantially less money that day from the time it takes to sort out the issue, or even risking being fired (I know, it is illegal to fire people for taking a right to refuse unsafe work, but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens).

You want people to take their right to refuse unsafe work seriously? Promise them wage top ups on days where that choice wastes a bunch of (everyones) time. I had a day where an environmental hazard forced a 2 hour block move, and there were seriously planters that argued during the drive that we should have simply planted through it and taken that risk because it would have made them another ~100$ that day.
All of my company reviews and experience (The Planting Company, Windfirm, ELF, Folklore, Dynamic, Timberline, Eric Boyd, Wagner, Little Smokey, Leader, plus my lists for summer work and coastal) can be found at the start of the Folklore review due to URL and character limits.

Folklore, 2011: http://tinyurl.com/anl6mkd
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

Scooter, good stuff IMHO. That would indeed make an impact. That being said, it still only addresses training coming in to the contract, and does not deal with ongoing practices. Regardless, I think it's a good idea. It would be interesting to see how such an idea would be received, but both licensees and industry. The former is of course reluctant to reduce their pool of potential bidders, and the latter is reluctant to endorse anything that may reduce the number of contracts they can bid on. Even if just a few licensees (or perhaps BCTS, perish the thought) were to adopt this approach, it might stimulate a change.

RPF_ again, I wish more forestry licensees (and the staff assigned to oversee silviculture) took this approach, and actually checked in. I tip my hat to you sir. Unfortunately, I have witnessed licensee reps show up to do verification interviews with workers to ensure they are being cared for and supervised properly, spend 3 minutes talking to a rookie, and then leave...hardly enough to assess a safety program. Some licensees are truly proactive and check their silviculture contractors closely. I even had a major licensee hire me to provide training to their staff on assessing certain aspects of silviculture safety. BCTS definitely made a move to big-up themselves and their understanding of silvic operations following Khaira. However, as we all know, there is great variance between BCTS offices, and some have been quicker than others to change their practices.

Mike. Just being nitpicky, but your edit quote of RPF was somewhat selective in omitting the previous sentence. He didn't suggest that worker action is the main thing. He started by saying safety is ALSO workers responsibility. I think that points out they form an important link in the chain. There are certainly some good examples out there. I saw a crew invoke the right to refuse with some really really gnarly ground, and it definitely cost them some time in the field. The company responded by commending the workers, taking it to the licensee, and ensuring that prices were worked out to make it fair once they had a new SOP to apply to the situation.

I would suggest that refusing a job assignment on a safety basis is an area where some of the biggest changes have happened in the industry. I truly believe that the majority of employers are more open to such action than say 10-15 years ago, and that supervisors and forepersons are more actively encouraging workers to forego tasks that are seen as too risky. There is progress. We have to look hard to find it sometimes, but it is there.
RPF
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by RPF »

Here is a link to the Jan/Feb 2015 issue of the BC Forest Professional magazine. The focus of this issue is safety and includes an interesting article by John Betts (WSCA) regarding silviculture worker safety.

http://www.abcfp.ca/publications_forms/ ... l2Post.pdf
YellowCedar
Regular Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:19 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by YellowCedar »

If we look at the forum page where all the topics are posted we can see that, "Nutrition," posted four years ago, has had 46 replies and 9,456 views. In one year "Preseason workout" has had 0 replies and 82 views. "Performance Enhancers" has had 39 replies and 10,118 views: in one year!

Relating to "safety," there must be a message somewhere in that.
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

YellowCedar wrote:If we look at the forum page where all the topics are posted we can see that, "Nutrition," posted four years ago, has had 46 replies and 9,456 views. In one year "Preseason workout" has had 0 replies and 82 views. "Performance Enhancers" has had 39 replies and 10,118 views: in one year!

Relating to "safety," there must be a message somewhere in that.
It's HEALTH AND safety. And the two are very closely related. Sometimes this linkage is overlooked with the focus on musculoskeletal injuries and motor-vehicle accidents. Moreover, there are challenges to getting people to engage in activities outside of their working time for the purpose of enhancing their work ability.
User avatar
Pandion
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Pandion »

http://wsca.ca/2015/06/who-is-getting-i ... sumptions/

This study seems to contradict the idea that more experienced workers are more safe, however it fails to take into account the number of hours or days worked per injury or the type of terrain being planted, and only looks at injuries sustained by age groups and gender. Since the majority of planters who put in long seasons on the coast tend to be more experienced and male, the study is flawed and rather useless. We all know if you were to throw a bunch of inexperienced planters onto a coastal heli show for a couple of months, the amount of injuries would be ridiculous.
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

"Flawed and useless". That's a bit strong. There are limits to every study, and this study provides at least some data on where the injuries are happening, and who happens to be there when they do happen.

The ratios tell us that even within the categories of "male" and "more experienced" that injuries are more common. This could indeed be a product of geography. However, you are asserting an explanation without evidence. To support your theory, you need demographic data on the gender balance on the coast versus interior, and injury incidence for coast versus interior. The proper approach would be to control for the factors you suggest. That would be a great model.

One should rightly ask what possible factors cause these specific groups to get injured more often. Geography could be one as you have asserted, and I would suggest that you are at least partly right. Attitude and work style could be another. Both assertions lack clear evidence, but are equally worthy of testing, and there are other potential explanations as to why these differences exist.

Moreover, the critique of any study always begins with the sample. Who are the respondents versus who is the actual population, and how might that affect the data outcomes? That is pretty much the most important question to ask of any study. Remember this was not a simple random sample, nor was it stratified to reflect the geographic, gender, age, experience, and organizational distributions of workers. I note that I sampled 1400 people over two years and found 70/30 men women, whereas this study found 74/26 in less than 300 respondents, indicating that there is either significant sampling error, or an abrupt demographic shift at play. However, the fact that the findings reflect WSBC data (over the last 10 years) suggests that it wasn't totally off the mark, and thus not entirely flawed and useless.

Still, you are very right to point out the geography thing. I will seek to raise that idea in any future discussion of this or similar data.
User avatar
Pandion
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Pandion »

The typical coastal crew I've worked on for the last 15 years has way higher average experience and a much larger male component than the interior crews I've worked on for the last 20 years. More experienced planters who work the coast usually plant over 100 days a year while, less experienced planters who work in the interior barely work over 50 days. Of course there is going to be more injuries reported by more experienced planters in any given year when you consider the disparity in terrain and days planted compared to less experienced planters, that is why this study is rather useless. Unless those factors are going to be accounted for it is irresponsible to suggest that more experienced workers are less safe.
Evergreen
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:56 am
Location: Campbell River

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Evergreen »

I agree with Pandion regarding the proportions of male to female and levels of experience for coastal crews. I definitely agree that the numbers in the WCB study are not calibrated properly to reflect the number of days each worker puts in during a planting year. You do not see many inexperienced planters working the coast fall season and the ratio of men to women is higher than 70/30 from what I've seen.

The first thing to establish would be the number of person days that each demographic group works. Although experienced older male planters may work longer seasons, there may be 3 or 4 times as many inexperienced younger male and/or female workers planting interior trees. Until these ratios are known, the numbers in the study aren't particularly accurate.

We have some of the over 45 male group working with us and our experience is that they do sustain more injuries relative to their numbers and that these injuries tend to be more long lasting and expensive. Is this a symptom of wear and tear more than of unsafe practices or systems? Is it true as the study asks that younger workers just don't report injuries and tough them out? Do these younger planters not know their rights or are they discouraged from reporting injuries to WCB? There are lots of factors at play that this study does not encompass. Some times these kinds of study numbers can be misleading and so aren't as useful as they could be.

Back to the older group of very experienced male planters, could study numbers like the ones here, bias employers against hiring these potentially higher risk/cost workers? If so I'd really hope the numbers would be presented so as not to provide potential bias against vets who have made planting their careers. At least to some degree it is irresponsible to put numbers out there that aren't thoroughly thought out.
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

All excellent points from my perspective.

However, in regard to Pandion's point, I think you are reading something the data is not saying. It does not say that experienced male workers are less safe, only that they are getting more injured more often. There is a huge difference between these assertions that matter for many reasons, some of which you have hinted at.

First, accidents and injuries do not simply flow from unsafe behaviour. That would foolishly suggest it is always the worker's fault. I am sure that is a perspective that few workers would agree with, and most employers would find folly in.

Second, as you are both right to point out, we must account for the conditions and circumstances that workers are thrust into, and how certain groups face conditions quite different from others.

So again, not to argue semantics, but I do not see the data as useless, just limited. If X workers are more likely to be injured, and X workers occupy a different set of conditions than other workers that (we suspect) are linked to the injury outcomes, we should be paying closer attention to the said conditions, and not just focusing on the characteristics of X workers. I'm not arguing that the study is perfect; it has many limits that are not clearly addressed in the summary linked here (more details in the full report). In fact, I would suggest that a truly comprehensive study that accounts for all factors mentioned here would involve such a level of complexity that we would nearly need to survey every worker with a battery of 150 questions, with additional multi-level modelling that simultaneously accounts for both individual and organizational variables. Some serious statistical sh*t. But that doesn't mean that anything less is useless. Good research flows from refinements, and even the broadest trends can help steer towards important ideas. Here for example, there is a higher rate of injuries among one group. The failure to consider the conditions of those injuries does not in any way discount the findings. It only means we cannot draw certain conclusions from them, and suggests additional factors that must be included in future work.

As per potential bias against X workers, that is indeed an important consideration. In the world of bean-counting risk-aversion, and actuarial decision-making, it is really critical for data not to be taken out of its context. The data is only misleading if faulty assumptions are drawn form it, or if it is used without good critical thought (which we have in abundance here). As one of the people that is directly involved in the interpretation of this data, I take in all of these good points. Moreover, in all of my discussions with clients, licensees, or WSBC, I have yet to hear anyone interpret the data in a manner that suggest male coasters are injury-prone risk-takers. Like any of you, I would be quick to correct such a leap (if not outright offended).

With all that being said, one cannot ignore the gender differences at play here. It is no mystery in this world that men are more likely to be involved in fights, car accidents, stupid sports screw-ups, and other examples of activity leading to injury. Like it or hate it, these gendered behaviour differences extend across almost all classes of activity. Certainly, research this broad and basic cannot hope to shed any light on how this undeniable dimension of human behavior manifests in worker injuries. However, it at least provides some hints that the work environment/circumstances may not be the sole differences between groups of workers when it comes to explaining the injury rates. Complex social (and genetically-predisposed) patterns interact with a dynamic environment.

Perhaps as a starting point, it should be considered inappropriate to conduct studies that presume to represent all planters. Just because interior and coastal planters are included in same insurance classification unit, one cannot ignore the differences between groups. As for men-women, any study that actually seeks to explain workplace injuries, that does not include gender as a control variable, is indeed worthless. They didn't miss that here, but they also didn't seek to explain anything, just describe it.
jdtesluk
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by jdtesluk »

I want to add that I log in here regularly for this exact sort of discussion with well-informed perspectives such as yours. I take all of this input into account in my own work analyzing trends and issues in the industry.
User avatar
Pandion
Replant Forums Highballer
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:56 am

Re: Discuss Safety in the Planting Industry

Post by Pandion »

Right, not less safe just more injury prone. The nature of injuries that occur while planting should absolutetly be studied, but this study needs some serious re-work. It merely points out the obvious, when much more could have been learned with more in depth questions. At least I know not to hire any planters over 45.
Post Reply