Should all planters have a radio?

[creamshow]

My friend that does block layout work but used to plant brought this point up. Him and all of his colleagues have a radio and have to check in once an hour, and he said from his experience everybody that he knows that works in the bush (except planters) must have a radio as part of safety standards. Do you think all planters having a radio should be part of SAFE Certified?
Hypothetically if it were, who do you think should be paying for it: the logging company (by raised bid prices, if that's realistic), the planting company or the planter?

[Scooter]

Interesting topic. I mentioned this in the training videos that I'm working on, that I wouldn't be surprised if someday this was mandated. It makes a lot of sense, even though it would be expensive.

The planters definitely should NOT have to pay for the radios. Specifically, "You will be required to provide appropriate and approved clothing that will protect you from the elements, as well as appropriate work gloves, footwear, and, if required, a hard hat. Your employer is required to provide all other protective equipment."

I suspect that it would be the planting companies that would be forced to pay for the radios. Not a good situation, considering how easy it is to lose a radio.

I should add that I always carry a handheld when I'm planting on the coast, since I'm an OFA3. I know the radio chatter annoys some planters, but I really like having it, even despite the little bit of extra weight. It's nice to know that no matter where I am, if something goes wrong, I can get in touch with someone for help.

[theBushman]

I suspect the answer would be FRS and GMRS radio, AA or AAA powered. Some baggies, duct tape and lanyards, little flagging customization and there is really no reason to not have it on your person.

I'm not opposed to the idea at all. I've left a radio at caches to let planters manage themselves, they can call in for the extra boxes they may need, and let me know when they've closed up. This isn't an everyday thing, just for the annoying little bits of land.

I'd think that there are crews that have kitted up with comms and have some good advice.

[Pandion]

What you don't think a whistle will save your ass? It's a complete joke, that most companies ERPs are dependant on a whistle being heard from across a block on windy or rainy day by someone rocking out to their tunes. I carry my own radio and it's made me many times more money than it cost. The only downside is the mindnumbing chatter some people feel the need to share and the added responsibility that seems to find you, unpaid of course.

[Scooter]

I'm not opposed to the idea at all. I've left a radio at caches to let planters manage themselves, they can call in for the extra boxes they may need, and let me know when they've closed up. This isn't an everyday thing, just for the annoying little bits of land.

I'd think that there are crews that have kitted up with comms and have some good advice.

Yeah, some of my foremen buy several Cobra's for the crew and use them for the same reasons. Pretty handy at times.

What you don't think a whistle will save your ass? It's a complete joke, that most companies ERPs are dependant on a whistle being heard from across a block on windy or rainy day by someone rocking out to their tunes.

Exactly. Whistles might be great on a flat Interior block on a sunny day, when the sound carries forever. But on a coastal heli block, when you're in a pocket of slash (which is pretty much the entire piece) and it's raining and windy to deaden the sound, the effectiveness of the whistles is pretty limited unless someone is planting pretty close to you.

[jdtesluk]

All fallers carry radios. Yet, they also work in teams with mandatory check-ins.
This second part is perhaps what needs to be looked at. Check-ins among planters are rarely and poorly done. Often, companies will have protocols for planters to have a partner they check in with every hour. However, in practices, such protocols are hardly ever followed to full effect. A key obstacle is that planters want their own piece, and to work independently of each other. Seldom do they ever want to share a piece or partner up. Occasionally, partners are required. Perhaps planting partners should be necessary. Would that not solve many of the problems, plus have the added benefit of help being right there with you?

The temptation to solve the problem by throwing a piece of equipment at workers may seem attractive, but it has many limitations.I think radios CAN be a good idea. However, there are numerous challenges involving expense, maintenance, licensing, and protocol. Looking inside the supervisor tent to find an open charger at night can be like searching for street parking before a Canucks game. Fugettaboutit. Unneeded chatter can also be an issue. Radios channels also must be licensed, and the proper channels must be utilized. I also don't like the idea of throwing a radio at someone, and then saying "they're okay, they have a radio". A radio doesn't help you patch a wound, deter wildlife, or pull yourself up off the ground. A dead radio, assumed to be a good radio, becomes a hazard to the worker.

So, the problem is that workers are often isolated, and lack effective communication. THis is seen as a hazard for their safety if they are injured or require assistance. Here are some options:

> Have planters work in pairs. Spin-off benefits- workers keep an eye on each other, remain accountable to each other, and can help each other directly in an emergency, and in some cases help each other be better planters (ie pairing vets with rookies). Challenges include matching personalities, ensuring quality. Hey, some Brinkman and Apex crews work exclusively in teams or pairs. I wonder if worker communication is an issue for them?

> Actually practice and enforce proper check-ins between workers. Challenges here are the pressure to focus only on personal production. The industry needs to provide workers with proper incentives to do this, and make sure it happens.

> Provide supervisors with sufficient resources to conduct more frequent checks on worker well-being. Okay, we know the challenge here in supers already having limited time and resource. This comes from the top. I place the onus for this squarely on industry (licensees) to enable this. Spin-off benefit, is that it actually satisfies due diligence in ensuring the safety of workers, gives more opportunities for quality checks and monitoring, and for coaching processes. For the commissioned forepersons, running themselves half to death watching over 15 planters, this becomes a high task. I really don't think we can solve the problem of inadequate supervisor resources by giving everyone a radio.

> Provide planters with better signalling devices (i.e. airhorns) Spin-off benefit is that these are helpful for bears. They are cheaper, require little training, and require less maintenance. Challenges include getting workers to carry them and care for them (and not leave them in their day bag). They don't provide direct word-by-word communication. I would consider these good add-ons and things planters should consider carrying, but not effective replacements for radios or proper person-to-person contact.

> Give planters radios. I place this closer to the bottom of the list, as I see these other (above) steps as more effective in solving the problem, and having better spin-off benefits. Radios do have the advantage of word-by-word communication, and can be used for specific things such as conveying information about pieces, need for trees, and other details- However good supervision and planning takes care of many of those things before hand. Radios have advantages, but they have numerous limitations, and I think their advantages can be covered through other means. I would suggest MORE radios, and having one person with a radio in each area or finger of a block. However, a radio for everyone will not solve all the problems, and may create others.

For the record, the SAFE Companies audit requires that all workers have effective means of communication. It is extremely unlikely that they will mandate radios at any time in the near future, either through the audit or WorkSafeBC. However, effective signalling remains an issue, and when I do an audit, and find a worker in total isolation with only a whistle that cannot actually be heard, I consider this a failing on the company to provide effective communication.

As for headphones, these drive me crazy at times. I don't want to begrudge workers their music, and certainly other forestry workers have their tunes (sat radios in machinery...). One earbud at a reasonable volume is often okay. However, when I am calling to a worker from 20 feet away, and they can't hear me, they are a hazard to themselves and everyone else. Acknowledgement of responsibility to others, and the need to be able to help others is paramount. There are so many good brands of portable waterproof speakers now that can be easily carried in the bags. These also help warn animals of your presence. No excuses for workers to be rocking out and not paying attention.

[The_Bearslayer]

Looking inside the supervisor tent to find an open charger at night can be like searching for street parking before a Canucks game. Fugettaboutit.

Radios come with charging bases. One radio, one base. Ten radios, ten bases. Put each radio into a base and they'll charge.

Unneeded chatter can also be an issue.

I rarely see this problem. If it is a problem it's usually easy to discourage. In any case it's never enough to actually block a call from anyone who needs help or information.

Radios channels also must be licensed, and the proper channels must be utilized.

You mean I can't just yell someone's name into the radio and reach them? I actually have to use the correct frequency? You're right, radios are more trouble than they're worth. Let's throw them all out.

I also don't like the idea of throwing a radio at someone, and then saying "they're okay, they have a radio". A radio doesn't help you patch a wound, deter wildlife, or pull yourself up off the ground.

Radios don't make those things any more difficult either. No one's advocating doing away with any other safety measures, and as long as that's the case, a radio pretty much does ensure you're okay, in my experience. If you're in trouble you let people know and they help you. Like the pilot, for example, who can come grab you as soon as you can get to a pad. Or some dude sitting on the barge who can prepare the first aid room or call an air ambulance. Or your foreman, or the first aid attendant, or pretty much fucking anyone. How many of those people would have heard a whistle? Probably none of them, on most of the blocks I was on this spring.

A dead radio, assumed to be a good radio, becomes a hazard to the worker.

Radios don't die if they're charged and maintained properly, which most of us who use radios every day manage to do.

Planters on heli blocks need radios. People can't buy their own -- the radios themselves might be affordable but the programming isn't. It is, however, affordable for the company, who probably works in the same area every year and hasn't reprogrammed their radios for two or three years. Ninety percent of them times I felt I might be about to die on a block, it was because I and other planters had to do risky things to get to spots and none of us could have called for help if someone was injured. I can't make enough noise for my employer to give me a radio, but I'd sure like one, and so would many other people, and I don't think any or your arguments for why they shouldn't make much sense.

[Nate]

In my opinion, the top industry risk exposure for serious/fatal incidents are:

1. Vehicles
2. Planters working alone. Illness/falls/allergic reaction/wildlife etc.

I'd wager if a planter were to be mauled/dragged/killed by a bear like the Suncor worker in Fort McMurray was this year (unprovoked, sustained Black Bear attack that withstood rescue attempts), there'd be a big change in the industry. I know I was guilty of leaving planters unchecked for a half-day sometimes when things got busy. In Ontario there was a couple of times where I was dropped at pieces and didn't see anyone all day with no communication, it was pretty standard.

I don't know if mandatory radio usage is a "reasonably practicable" solution as OH&S legislation would term it given the cost and potential technological shortcomings (battery/range/wrong channel etc.), but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

[jdtesluk]

BearS you seem to have taken small snippets of my rant to support your response, and missing the broader point. That's okay. I guess I need to be more concise. However, part of the failing here was that I could have provided more detail. Nonetheless, let me humour your response.

1) The challenge with charging.... This is based on observations of dozens upon dozens of camps. Not sure how many you inspect every year. If radios are going to be used, there will have to attention to setting up the camp so radio-charging is done in an orderly fashion. In the current state, it is very common to see people searching for a charged radio in the morning, or struggling to find a place to plug in. This is not a deal-breaker in any sense. It is simply a consideration that needs to go along with consideration of expanding radio use.

2) Licensing. To be clear, I don't really care if a radio is properly licensed, as long as it works. However, the federal agency known as Industry Canada polices the use of radio frequencies, and places demands on radio users to acquire and pay for licensing and use of frequencies. This is why most companies take their radios to authorized programming services. This licensing scheme has much to do with profiting off wireless real estate, and little to do with safety. However, it represents an additional consideration that accompanies mass-expansion of radio use. Again, not a knock on the utility of radios, but a consideration that companies need to manage if they go this route. I probably needed to provide more context here, but the idea of getting rid of radios was never insinuated, and your sarcasm finds a poor fit here.

3) You're right about chatter to some extent. I think it is more of an annoyance, and is generally easy to control in emergencies. This is a training and implementation consideration. Some people don't like to listen to chatter all day, and turn their radios down so they don't have to hear it. Thus, one would have to consider such implementation challenges when they consider having all workers carry radios to ensure emergency communications. Pay attention hear BS-- I'm not saying that radios are bad and should be thrown away, just that a knee-jerk response to give everyone a radio needs to be accompanied by a well-thought out process of how to implement the new equipment and administer it's usage.

4) You're also right about heli-shows. More radios here for sure. Totally distinct type of planting that cannot be looked at in the same manner as an interior trench-show. If you are on a heli-block, either you or someone immediately close to you should have a radio. Definitely. That one point hardly negates all of the other points I made (so I really don't know why you wrote it that way), but I recognize the critical importance of these conditions, and agree that employers should provide more radios here.

5) No, radios don't make things more difficult. However, relying on them without taking a deeper look at the problems leading to the need for more radios is a problem from my perspective. You seem to suggest I am against radios. You then go on to say you disagree with my arguments. Fine, disagree all you want, but at least do the courtesy of acknowledging the main point. I am not against radios, in fact I directly stated more radios is a good thing. I am simply against throwing radios unthinkingly at the workers, and pretending they are an effective substitute for proper supervision, or for ensuring that workers are deployed in a manner in which direct physical assistance is immediately available. If you want to selectively snip a part of my post and go off on it, go with that.

I placed radios closer to the bottom of the list of things that I would do to make planters safer (but not off the list altogether). In some conditions It may indeed be appropriate to place them closer to the top. However, I adamantly stick to my point that there are many other things that need to be done first, that are in fact required by law and in many cases are not being done. There is no replacement for adequate supervision and monitoring, and the individualistic drive of planting that supports sticking a planter alone in their own piece of land should be scrutinized here as well. Perhaps the biggest issue I neglected to mention is the provision of safe access to and from the worksite. If there are concerns with communication and evacuation, we absolutely need to question the logic (and the licensee decisions) that says it is okay to put planters in those situations to begin with. I spent two hours on the phone last week with contractors and licensees discussing this exact issue, in an effort to negotiate towards ensuring safer worksite access for planters. So great, more radios is not a bad thing. However, it is a failure from my perspective to ignore the bigger picture, and to turn a blind eye to the existing failings that give rise to the conditions that make communication such a problem to begin with.

[theBushman]

No problem is going to be solved by a manager rolling into camp with 30 radios of any design or condition. Any tool is useless if it isn`t going to be used properly and taken care of.

[jakeb]

All the SAFE certification audits I went through (as a foreman) asked about the on-block check-in procedures. I'm not sure how much it has in the audit scoring though.

Good communication is key to planter safety. Everyone should know where they are on the map, who their neighbouring planters are and where, evacuation/ muster location, know block hazards, etc.

If all this is in place and your guys justifiably want more, sure get them radios.

I will say that they are a better idea in principle than in practice. No company is going to buy proper radios for everyone, so they will likely be the little canadian tire hiking style ones, which will get treated with a bit less respect than a $400 radio. There is a human-factor here too. Good crews for personal radios would be organized crews who would take care of them, charge them, use them properly.....while bad crews for personal radios will forget them, not charge them, lose them. Like most business decisions, if the owners see them being used properly and treated nicely they will be encouraged to continue using them. If they see them being misused and abused they will not be encouraged to invest in them.

I always made a point to keep an extra handheld to leave with planters in satellite pieces, etc. Planters are a bit more receptive to partner planting in these cases too.....just pick the ones who will be into it, not johnny-highballer who won't even share a cache civilly

Tools and rules help, but safety is a culture as I see it